Interview with Bob Woodward
March 6, 1989
Robert Gettlin and Len Colodny

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GETTLIN:

Ah, I'd mentioned to you that we — ah, what we wanted to talk about your military background and so forth, um, actually I wanted to start with — a little bit before that with Yale and — and o— NO, NROTC and so forth, so let me just ask you some questions about that . . .

WOODWARD:

Okay, what is — is the book here as you describe it, because over the years I've received various accounts of what this book was, it first started out as a book on Liquorgate, right?

COLODNY:

It had its metamorphosis that's, ah, you know, it went through, ah, a number of metamorphoses and I think part of that was we were following a trail then said, wait a minute if you're not right about this or you don't think this is the way it is, ah, the facts should determine what the book says and not us determining what the book said.

WOODWARD:

But it started out as a book on Liquorgate, right?

COLODNY:

I [may?] ..

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE]

COLODNY:

Yeah, I think — I think it would be — i— it's only fair to say look, we were looking at what you were doing and trying to understand what happened in that story as an original thing.

WOODWARD:

If that had evolved into

COLODNY:

[INAUDIBLE]

WOODWARD:

. . . and you dropped that, and then it evolved into a — a biography of me . . .

COLODNY:

No, it never was a biography . . .

WOODWARD:

The— this is what people reported to me that you contacted [NOISE ON TAPES DISTORTS CONVERSATION]

COLODNY:

No, I think that — that to be fair about it and, ah, Bob is [NOISE DISTORTION]. . and I think since the —the genesis is the relationship that he had that went way back, ah, I think what happened was we were looking at you and then we found a much larger story going on and unfortunately the title didn't reflect, the working title didn't reflect the reality and when we finally got to the point, last year, where we went to a— to hire an agent . . .

WOODWARD:

What was the working title at that point?

COLODNY:

It was Woodward was Watergate and if you read that, the title and then read the books you would say, well, wait a minute what are you talking about he's not — he's not the central character in the book, why did you title the book that, ah, well, it was a working title and you've used working titles before, ah, if the, ah, the story didn't evolve that way, ah, I like to think of the story this way, Bob, ah, the Nixon administration is what this story's about, it's a story about an administration that soared, that took off and soared and in the end crashed. You reported the crash and that part of it is — is clear in the book and there's no misunderstanding, but what we tried to look at was all the other things that were going on, ah, prior to that who Ni— you know, what was really happening here, what kind of a president was Richard Nixon and what kind of enemies did he develop, and how did this crash happen, and we think that that's what the book's about and it more accurately reflects your role, ah, as a reporter of — of the crash and what was that crash all about and who were his enemies and who really wanted to do Richard Nixon in, the pub— perception of — ah, Richard Nixon the, ah, the anti-communist, the Democrats hate him, the liberals hate him, that kind — so really that's what you have, ah, an administration that soars to the greatest heights in foreign policy, changes the world in — in many ways and then crashes. Why did it crash and what was going on in those early years that would've led to that kind of a crash. So I think that's an accurate description of what this book is today and you're correct in saying, yes, that's the way it started, but we followed the facts and let the facts determine what the story was . . .

WOODWARD:

We— we will deal with facts this morning. Go ahead.

GETTLIN:

Okay, so do you have any problem starting out, at that point?

WOODWARD:

At what?

GETTLIN:

Well, dealing with the ROTC, we're just trying to do a — a quick — quick run through and . . .

WOODWARD:

It's a matter of record, I was in the NROTC, ah . . .

GETTLIN:

Right. ah, what I was interested in is, ah, just, quickly, the genesis of ho— why you decided to go NROTC, what the competition was like to get in, the decision to go to Yale, there's been other things written about it but I, you know, I want to deal — get it from you . . .

WOODWARD:

It's not — it doesn't have to do with Richard Nixon, I assure you.

GETTLIN:

Well, that — that may be, but we're just trying to lay a groundwork, I mean, I'm just trying to, very quickly, determine what the — thinking back right out of high school what it was that prompted you to go NROTC and Navy and Yale and so forth.

WOODWARD:

Well, my father was in the Navy, it was a scholarship, the draft was inevitable at that point, ah, so it looked like everyone was gonna have to serve, it seemed to be a good way to do it.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, was it the kind of, ah — was it intense competition to get these things, were they a big deal, were they not a big deal, why Navy rather than just . . .

WOODWARD:

I just answered.

GETTLIN:

'Cause your father was in the Navy.

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

GETTLIN:

What about competition to get into NROTC?

WOODWARD:

I don't know.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Ah, well when you went to Yale, ah, when you were in the NROTC program, ah, what was — what kind of classes did you take, did you prepare for any specialty, can you tell me a little bit about what it was like at Yale being NROTC.

WOODWARD:

No, there was no flexibility, you took one course a year.

GETTLIN:

Was there any specialty that you prepared for there?

WOODWARD:

No, no choice, they dictated what it was.

GETTLIN:

What about the summer cruises, what were they all about?

WOODWARD:

Those were also dictated.

GETTLIN:

Well, can you describe what they — where you went or what you did or . . .

WOODWARD:

Aircraft carrier, ah, first year, the marine and flight trainings, second cruise on a destroyer in the Med, third year . . .

GETTLIN:

And when you got out you were, ah, an ensign [I think it was?]

WOODWARD:

Correct.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. Did you — you didn't have any specific training? Ha— your first orders were to go to the Wright?

WOODWARD:

Correct.

GETTLIN:

Is that correct? Is there any particular reason why — do you know why you were selected to go to the Wright, was it just random or . . . what?

WOODWARD:

[LAUGHS] No idea.

GETTLIN:

You kno— you have no idea why you were . . .

WOODWARD:

I was a radio ham when I was a kid.

GETTLIN:

Hmm-mm.

WOODWARD:

And it was a communication shift, they knew that much.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, what was your job with the Wright?

WOODWARD:

Circuit Control Officer.

GETTLIN:

What does that entail?

WOODWARD:

Ah, entailed, ah, run — running the, ah, the group of, ah, radio men, laying all the circuits that the Wright kept up.

GETTLIN:

What — what kind of a ship was the Wright? It was a — it was a refurbished aircraft carrier, is that right?

WOODWARD:

Correct.

GETTLIN:

We— what was its — its assignment, its function?

WOODWARD:

Command communications.

GETTLIN:

For . . .

WOODWARD:

It was what was called [NECPPA?], national emergency command post patrol. Relocation sight for the President and the national committee command authority in an emergency.

GETTLIN:

Was the President ever aboard when you were there?

WOODWARD:

Ah, Johnson came aboard once, briefly.

GETTLIN:

When you were an officer on that ship?

WOODWARD:

Right, right.

GETTLIN:

What ah — now you mentioned before about your security clearance, what kind of security clearances did you have?

WOODWARD:

Top secret crypto.

GETTLIN:

Top secret crypto? What is — yeah, and I don't — I don't know that the ins and outs of . . .

WOODWARD:

I realize that.

GETTLIN:

Okay, well maybe you can educate me a little bit, what is — where does that fall in the line of . . .

WOODWARD:

It — it is not a [INAUDIBLE] intelligence, as — as I attempted to tell you, ah, clearance and all, it's for the cryptographic machines and code cards that, ah, are used in communications.

GETTLIN:

Hmm-mm. Ah, so what — without revealing anything that would, you know, be, you know, top secret or anything — well if — you can what you want, I guess, I'm just trying to get an idea of what kinds of information came in to the Wright that you would process or the guys that you were with would process.

WOODWARD:

It — it — it's essentially a, ah, an emergency relocation command post, it's waiting . . .

GETTLIN:

Hmm-mm.

WOODWARD:

. . . for the crisis, which never came.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. So what was that two-year period like, was it — you just, you guys just sort of sitting around or was it actually top . . .

WOODWARD:

I think it was two and a half years.

GETTLIN:

Oh, OK.

WOODWARD:

You know, a lot of watches, a lot of routine, Navy ship board.

GETTLIN:

Y e ah, would you consider it an assignment that was, ah, prestigious assignment or one that, I mean, did that — did most guys coming out of Yale or out of ROTC get those kind — I mean, it was — they wouldn't select just anybody, right, for a top secret crypto job or maybe they would, I don't know.

WOODWARD:

Well, they — it certainly was not one of the prestigious assignments, okay?

GETTLIN:

Now, you went to the — you left the Wright after two — two and a half years, um, what were your orders at that point?

WOODWARD:

I got orders to Vietnam and I asked to have them changed to go to another ship.

GETTLIN:

What — do you remember specifically what the orders were, to go to Vietnam and do what?

WOODWARD:

I think it was to be a technical watch officer in Canto province.

GETTLIN:

And what would that of — was that on a boat?

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE].

GETTLIN:

Was that on a boat or was that . . .

WOODWARD:

No, it was in an operations center.

GETTLIN:

Right, okay, how did those get changed?

WOODWARD:

I requested it.

GETTLIN:

Uh, do you remember the procedure you went through and . . .

WOODWARD:

Wrote the letter and said I'd rather go to sea, I didn't want to got to Vietnam.

GETTLIN:

Do you remember who you wrote to or who changed the orders?

WOODWARD:

Detailer.

GETTLIN:

Oh, okay, so each guy in the Navy has a — has a detail officer, is that right?

WOODWARD:

Correct.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. Um, and you just went through a normal procedure to just request, I — my understanding is it wasn't easy to get out of Vietnam.

WOODWARD:

Well, I made a trip to Washington to talk to my detailer.

GETTLIN:

From — where were you [INAUDIBLE]?

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE].

GETTLIN:

Uh-huh, so you said . . .

WOODWARD:

. . . and wrote a letter and sat down and talked to the guy.

GETTLIN:

And just like that said I don't wanta go to Vietnam, find me another assignment.

WOODWARD:

Correct, I'd rather go on a ship.

GETTLIN:

It was that easy?

WOODWARD:

[LAUGHS] [NO?]

GETTLIN:

Okay, was there anybod— so the detailer made the decision?

WOODWARD:

I believe so.

GETTLIN:

N— nobody higher up or any . . .

WOODWARD:

Not to my knowledge.

GETTLIN:

Okay, so you . . .

COLODNY:

Those — were those orders that you had, Bob, were they cut already at the time that you got them originally?

WOODWARD:

Yes.

GETTLIN:

Um, so you went — did they assign you to the Fox — they said okay, you don't want to go to Vietnam?

WOODWARD:

That's correct.

GETTLIN:

Okay, so you went to the Fox and what was your — and were you an Ensign now or were you a Lieutenant JG.

WOODWARD:

No, I was a Lieutenant JG or a Lieutenant.

COLODNY:

I think — I think it was JG.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, okay. So you — they assigned you to the Fox.

WOODWARD:

Communications Officer.

GETTLIN:

Okay, now that was different from a radio officer that you had on the Wright, was that — was that a step up?

WOODWARD:

Well, I was in — I was in charge of communications for the whole ship.

GETTLIN:

Can you describe [INAUDIBLE] Wright, what that entailed?

WOODWARD:

Well, maybe 15 or 20 radio men, you had to keep up circuits, ah, ways of communications, all that type of stuff, [INAUDIBLE].

GETTLIN:

And you guys were based in San Diego, but you took, I think, a number of trips to South China sea or I guess it was ca— what was it called "Yankee Station" is what the reference was to the [machine?].

WOODWARD:

Well, we made, ah, one [less man?] cruise while I was . . .

GETTLIN:

Okay, well what was the Wright's assignment on those — we— were you and, ah . . .

WOODWARD:

You mean Fox?

GETTLIN:

I'm sorry, Fox, was the Fox acting in support of any military operations [INAUDIBLE]?

WOODWARD:

They were, ah — we— we hi— were a radar picket ship, um, um, it was called a [PIRAZ?] station . . .

GETTLIN:

Hmm.

WOODWARD:

. . . and I forget what that stands for, ah, we — we had one position we had to kind of circle around in, ah, off the cost of Vietnam and acted as a radar guidance ship, ah, for planes.

COLODNY:

For planes that had been doing air strikes on Vietnam?

WOODWARD:

Yeah, and all kinds of air crap.

GETTLIN:

Was there — how about the security clearances on the Fox, were they similar to the Wright . . .

WOODWARD:

Same thing.

GETTLIN:

. . . top secret crypto?

WOODWARD:

They — that's correct [INAUDIBLE] they had an embarked, ah intelligence team, ah . . .

GETTLIN:

What — what was that all about?

WOODWARD:

Well, ah, I don't know because I wasn't cleared for it.

GETTLIN:

The Wright — excuse me, the Fox had an embarked intelligence team?

WOODWARD:

That's correct, of about — ju— they would come and go, they had some, ah, they had something they were doing, I — I think it was, ah, what did they call them, CT's, communications technicians.

GETTLIN:

Oh, I see.

WOODWARD:

For the intelligence enlisted.

GETTLIN:

Hmm-mm. So would the Fox be a ship that would be specifically assigned for that kind of a thing or . . .

WOODWARD:

No, I think whatever ship came and assumed those duties and the, ah, ah, team embarked.

COLODNY:

Was this the Fox's maiden voyage to, ah, Vietnam?

WOODWARD:

No, it was not, it had been there previously.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, the Fox had — I think the Fox first sailed in 1967.

COLODNY:

It did get reclassified at a point too wi— during the SALT treaty, didn't somehow another they reclassify from what it was originally built to be in order to meet . . .

WOODWARD:

Oh yeah, we weren't aware of that.

COLODNY:

It was then after — it was after you were gone anyway.

WOODWARD:

I'm sure it was.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Bob Welander was the captain of the ship during a period when you were there, ah, were w— what was your relationship with then Captain Welander, now retired Rear Admiral?

WOODWARD:

Um, we got along. And he — he was my boss, he was a bit of a dynamic, ah . . . skipper, somebody moving up.

GETTLIN:

Hmm-mm. Um, just — just a procedural thing, ah, how many officers would be aboard the Wright? You were, what, one of maybe 25, 26?

GETTLIN:

So there was . . .

WOODWARD:

But it be — could be 12, it could be 18.

GETTLIN:

Right, out of a crew of, what, a couple hundred, perhaps?

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE]

GETTLIN:

So, ah, and the officers, you know, you guys ate together and, you know, rub shoulders together all the time so, ah, it just is my understanding of — of what — I've never been in the Navy or been on a naval vessel, what — you know, what life is like among the officer corps on a ship, ah, our understanding is you get to know each other pretty well, I just wondered how much you got to know then Captain Welander, you mentioned he's a — got along with him, I assume were on — out at sea, it'd be best to get along with your captain, anything more than that?

WOODWARD:

No.

GETTLIN:

Um, now he left the Fox, I think, before you did and then an guy named Ward came on . . .

WOODWARD:

Right.

GETTLIN:

Okay, when, after Welander left the Fox, did you have any further contact with him or did you keep any kind of a relationship up with him?

WOODWARD:

He was a, ah, Council on Foreign Relations fellow, I believe, for a year and I think we exchanged letters once.

GETTLIN:

Hmm-mm. Ah, have you had any contact with him in the years since the Fox at all, I mean, talked to him or met with him or any kind of dealings with him at all?

WOODWARD:

Maybe had lunch once or twice, ah, as you know and as is a matter of record, ah, I think Carl and I wrote the first story identifying him as the Kissinger aide who's fired or relieved or transferred, depending on how you look at it . . .

GETTLIN:

Yeah.

WOODWARD:

. . . The Radford . . .

GETTLIN:

Right. So did you talk to him around that time?

WOODWARD:

Sure did.

GETTLIN:

You remember the circumstances that . . .

WOODWARD:

Well, I — have you gone into the record on that in terms . . .

GETTLIN:

Of what?

WOODWARD:

. . . of what's published in The Post and other newspapers?

GETTLIN:

On what, the Moorer-Radford?

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

Oh, yeah, sure. You broke the story on the 12th of January 19 .

WOODWARD:

Yeah, we were the first to name him.

COLODNY:

Yeah, you had a picture of him on the front page.

WOODWARD:

It was the lead story in the paper.

COLODNY:

Yeah, right. And it was a — it was the, the big story of that day and you ran a follow up story the second day, I — you and Carl, and, and Sy was running, pretty much, in the same ball park that you were running in at that — at that point, ah, the two of you . . .

WOODWARD:

But I think Squire of the Tribune . . .

COLODNY:

Tribune.

WOODWARD:

. . . broke the story because it was the — the big, ah, national security mystery that Nixon [had disarmed for sighting?] as why

COLODNY:

Right.

WOODWARD:

. . . some of this should not be opened up.

COLODNY:

Right. Well somebody wanted the story out, obviously at that point in time there had been — I — I think I'm right . . .

GETTLIN:

Let me — let me move back to — to Welander a second before I lose the train. So, it was around that time that you may have talked to him — that — I mean, here you're in a — you're sort of in a, I would guess, a sort of a funny position, a former — you're now no longer in the Navy, you're now a — were you — it's '74 so wa— I mean, you're a noted guy now because of the Watergate coverage and you call on your former commanding officer and say, "You know, we're about to reveal all this stuff." Ah, is that how it happened?

WOODWARD:

Wait, you know that's, ah, how many years . . .

GETTLIN:

Yeah, it's a long time.

WOODWARD:

About 15 years ago. I'd have to go back and look at the story. Um, I recall talking to him or talking to his wife and saying, "We're writing this story" and — I don't — and I think he would not talk about it.

GETTLIN:

Hmm-mm. Did you — you've never — you had any contact with him prior to that January '74 period when you were writing the story about him?

WOODWARD:

The Watergate story?

GETTLIN:

No, no the Moo—

COLODNY:

Moorer-Radford.

GETTLIN:

The one you just mentioned, the Moorer-Rad— where you guys first named him.

WOODWARD:

Not that I recall, I don't know why I would.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, okay. Ah, how about post-Watergate, you had any contact with him since then?

COLODNY:

After the Moorer-Radford story.

GETTLIN:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

Post Moorer-Radford.

WOODWARD:

I think we've talked twice.

GETTLIN:

Recently or not recently, a long time ago?

WOODWARD:

Well, let's see, I think, recently, I think I wanted to talk to him — [Phil?] and I are doing a little project on [Lieutenant?] [INAUDIBLE] and then I had one other discussion, which I'm not — which is, ah, like everyone in the Moorer-Radford affair, there were many versions of it and I was trying to find out what really happened.

GETTLIN:

Oh, so you're writing about the Moorer-Radford affair?

WOODWARD:

No, no, no, no, no.

GETTLIN:

Oh, oh, oh.

WOODWARD:

This — I — I was just saying generally in the Pentagon I called him . . .

GETTLIN:

Oh.

WOODWARD:

. . . but he was, ah, off on a sailing trip and I've not talked to him since, ah, but sometime in the '70's, after Nixon left office . . .

GETTLIN:

Yeah.

WOODWARD:

. . . after Nixon resigned . . .

GETTLIN:

Uh-huh.

WOODWARD:

. . . um, I think I may have had lunch with him, to try to find out what was going on.

GETTLIN:

With the Moorer-Radford thing?

WOODWARD:

Yeah, yeah.

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

I was unsuccessful.

GETTLIN:

Well, yes, you say there's different versions . . .

COLODNY:

Did you feel funny about that, I mean, this is just an off the cuff — I mean, I tried to put myself in your place as I read the articles that you wrote, and I'm not — I don't see anything sinister in it, just thinking what it must be like to have to go back to your old commanding officer and — it — there had to be some personal feeling, beyond just being a reporter, I — I mean that would seem just be human, it's just that . . .

WOODWARD:

Well I — I — I

COLODNY:

. . . 'Cause this had to be very — this had to be very embarrassing to Welander himself.

WOODWARD:

Well, I do — I guess I would cite as an example of, ah, the newspaper and my independence, ah, he was the former skipper and somebody I knew but, ah, names were being taken and — and, ah, we went ahead and did it.

GETTLIN:

Right. Okay, well, let's — let's run through the chronology again, so you left the Fox, ah, after about two years. Now, what happened at that point, you then went to the Pentagon, after the Fox?

WOODWARD:

Well, I had submitted my resignation, ah . . .

GETTLIN:

My understa— hang on just a second, the NROTC contract, as I understand it, required four years active, two years inactive reserve or something like that . . .

WOODWARD:

I don't know what it was — I know four years active.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, so at the end of the four years, which otherwise, normally would've been a period when you would have not been able to leave but you did, so wha— what happened?

WOODWARD:

Do you know why I did?

GETTLIN:

Well, you've told me on the phone that you [INAUDIBLE]

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE]

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

GETTLIN:

Hmm-mm.

WOODWARD:

And my four years would be up in the summer . . .

GETTLIN:

Right.

WOODWARD:

COLODNY:

Right.

WOODWARD:

But I think in '67, ah, the Secretary of the Navy had issued an order saying all regular officers, and I was one, are extended for — for 12 months.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Ah, I had mentioned to you that — I had had trouble finding the record that . . .

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

GETTLIN:

. . . you know, ah, maybe I didn't, obviously, didn't look in the right place, you said the Secretary of the Navy — as far as you . . .

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE], I've got a thing upstairs and I'll show you . . .

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

. . . is the best [INAUDIBLE]. [CONVERSATION IN BACKGROUND]

GETTLIN:

Ah, so actually two years prior to that, I mean, it was in '67, something you probably didn't even know about when you submitted your resignation [LOUD BACKGROUND NOISES] [INAUDIBLE] so actually two years prior to that — I mean, it was in '67 something you p r o bably didn't even know about when you submitted your resignation, that this lawyer had . . .

WOODWARD:

Did you just park in the driveway?

GETTLIN:

Yeah.

WOODWARD:

Well, that — that lady wants to get out, why don't one of you go move it.

GETTLIN:

Why don't — I better move it 'cause it's — why don't you . . . [CONVERSATIONS STOPS, LOTS OF BACKGROUND NOISES]

COLODNY:

I had the, ah, the month — ah, just to refresh your memory, of the — of we— of the months it took to end up lieutenant — you became a lieutenant on . . .

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 1:

Your best bet [INAUDIBLE]

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 2:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

. . . July one of '68

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 1:

. . . go to the left.

WOODWARD:

. . . is that right?

COLODNY:

Ya— you had like 17 months .

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 1:

Go out to the left . . .

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 2:

Wa— out the drive way and to the left?

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 1:

Out to — when you're facing the street the spaces are mostly that way.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 2:

Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 1:

Okay.

COLODNY:

It was 17 months as an Ensign and 19 months 'til you became a Lieutenant. [LONG PAUSE]

WOODWARD:

Are you really gonna publish this stuff, Len?

COLODNY:

Do you honestly believe, Bob, that St. Martin's has said, "Okay, folks, we're gonna hand you a lot of money to write a book," and we didn't have to support what we say in there, I think that wouldn't be . . .

WOODWARD:

But it — it's dead-ass wrong.

COLODNY:

Well, you know, that's on— I think it's one of the reasons we're here, Bob, in other words one of the things when yo— when was a - - what I thought was a deadlock with us, the inability to communicate, I didn't think was fair, ah, when we got to New York, ah, your agent — your agent, our agent had received a call from Alice at, ah, Simon and Schuster and said that we had an interview [going?], you told Washingtonian you didn't want to help with the project and I felt that it wasn't fair, we've read all these other stories that you've read, I didn't think that's going to the horse's mouth and asking . . .

WOODWARD:

Well, the — the — that's why we're gonna spend this time doing it.

COLODNY:

Ah, I mean I don't — I don't think we're being unfair and I think that it's important not to read it somewhere else.

WOODWARD:

Right.

COLODNY:

I think it's — I — I think that it would be unfair to read what other people had written, whether it's Halberstam or Hougan, and make a judgment without going through this material with you and saying this is, you know, what's the real story, I don't see the point — I didn't see the point in that and I've always pushed Bob, ah, on this side of the story, because we got . . .

WOODWARD:

I'll get — I'll get it, go ahead.

COLODNY:

. . . we had contradictory testimony — testimony — you're saying one thing, Hougan saying another thing, Halberstam say—

WOODWARD:

Who's saying another thing?

COLODNY:

I'm saying you're saying one thing . . .

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

. . . Hougan's saying another thing, ah, somebody else is saying something else, Halberstam writes something else, you end up in a situation where the only person that — and I know you wouldn't do this as a reporter, you wouldn't just take some — something you read in a book and say that's the way it is and that's the way it happened, you know, that — that to me, this is much better, this is asking [INAUDIBLE] . . . and we — I —I feel a very strong obligation to print what Bob Woodward says and not what somebody else says about Bob and let it stand alone. I don't think that . . .

WOODWARD:

Right.

COLODNY:

. . . I — I — and that's the way we . . .

WOODWARD:

So th— the— okay, so let's proceed.

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

We've got one hour left, so you might want . . .

GETTLIN:

Okay, so . . .

WOODWARD:

. . . to use it any way you want.

GETTLIN:

Right, well we're gonna — I'm gonna be through this pretty soon. Okay, we're back to the Pentagon, so you mentioned that — there's something upstairs which describes the [INAUDIBLE]

WOODWARD:

They sent out an . . .

COLODNY:

Yeah.

WOODWARD:

. . . an all [match?], do you know what that is, to all Navy saying we— we're extending these officers for one year.

GETTLIN:

Right, was it all . . .

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE]

GETTLIN:

. . . all officers . . .

WOODWARD:

All regular officers.

GETTLIN:

Nothing to do with your particular specialty or . . . okay, what is a regular officer, is it [both?] . . .

WOODWARD:

Ah, i— what's called an [lapricon grid?] officer, somebody who, ah, it's — it's a designation for somebody who may stay in the Navy permanently, that's like somebody who goes to the Naval Academy.

GETTLIN:

They have any indication that you were gonna be a — a career guy, or . . .?

WOODWARD:

That's what the regular scholarship was, it's like going to the Naval Academy.

GETTLIN:

Oh, oh, see I was . . .

WOODWARD:

You have the same designation.

GETTLIN:

But there was no — was there any indication — did you make the indication to the Navy that you were interested in staying on?

WOODWARD:

No, sir, 'cause I told you I'd resigned in '69.

GETTLIN:

Um . . .

WOODWARD:

Submitted my letter of resignation, it was not accepted, it was delayed one year.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Ah,now you went to the Pentagon — what was — you went to work, ah, in the CNO's office, and what was your . . .

WOODWARD:

Oh, it's — I was a Communications Watch Officer.

GETTLIN:

And it . . .

WOODWARD:

It was a matter of record.

GETTLIN:

Right, what — what about the clearances there?

WOODWARD:

Top secret crypto, no intelligence, no special intelligence clearances.

GETTLIN:

Well, there's been a lot — again as Len said, some of this may be on the record but who knows if it's right or not, that's why it kinda plods down . . .

WOODWARD:

On — on — on what record?

GETTLIN:

Well, I mean, people have written about what you may or may not have done . . .

WOODWARD:

Never had the intelligence clearances . . .

GETTLIN:

No.

WOODWARD:

it's a matter of record.

GETTLIN:

Right, okay.

WOODWARD:

What I think you can establish then . . .

GETTLIN:

I haven't . . .

WOODWARD:

. . . with a little ingenuity, —

GETTLIN:

. . . haven't had any indication that you were in intelligence, lieutenant.

COLODNY:

I — we have absolutely no evidence that you . . .

GETTLIN:

One thing . . .

COLODNY:

. . . we have not come across a shred of evidence to indicate that you were ever in Naval intelligence.

GETTLIN:

I was just asking you what — again as you discussed the Wright and the Fox, what the job was as a communications watch officer on the CNO's staff, again you were at the Pentagon, in a basement room and it's cryp— you know, what kind of messages came in, did you supervise guys, did you read digests, I mean, just . . .

WOODWARD:

I was in charge of, ah, on a watch basis, of all the communications coming to the CNO or — actually to the whole Navy Department, including the Secretary of the Navy.

GETTLIN:

Um, what did you — you basically just worked there, I mean, did you go anywhere else, did you have another function sometimes?

WOODWARD:

Sometimes I went other places like, ah, had courier duty at the White House occasionally.

GETTLIN:

What did that involve, 'cause this . . .

WOODWARD:

It's scut work carrying some documents or a folder down.

GETTLIN:

Would — in other words, Moorer or one of his guys would say go take this over to somebody at the White House and you'd rush over there and drop it off.

WOODWARD:

Wouldn't be Moorer it would, ah, in other words just be regular runs or somebody that, you know, somebody would say you need to go over there and get this.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. So it would just be a matter of dropping something off and leaving?

WOODWARD:

Sometimes a little bit longer, but if you — you oughta understand this if it — it is not, um, communications function like this is strictly, ah, nuts and bolts, it's not substantive, it's not making decisions, it's not writing things, it's getting message A or document A from here to here.

GETTLIN:

Any place else besides the White House, like the CIA . . .

WOODWARD:

Never — never the CIA, never the CIA, I think maybe State Department a couple of times.

GETTLIN:

Again, this is — now, you mentioned it's scut work and other people have written that it was a boring job, that you hated it, is that accurate?

WOODWARD:

It —it was boring, yes.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. Um so you were just, kinda running around gophering, I mean is that really what it was like?

WOODWARD:

That you could, read operational messages coming in sometimes there would be a crisis, you could read the, ah, reports coming from Vietnam, had access to all the, ah, operational, hon— intelligence, so you could follow the — during a lot of air strikes into Vietnam. I — I believe the — the [indemnization?] program was getting off the ground, followed that

GETTLIN:

During that year did you, as when you were working at the Pentagon you mentioned you were a communications watch officer, did you have any other job, any other function?

WOODWARD:

No.

GETTLIN:

Nothing at all?

WOODWARD:

Nothing at all.

GETTLIN:

Did you do any briefing with people?

WOODWARD:

Never.

GETTLIN:

Never did — you . . . um . . .

WOODWARD:

And — I defy you to produce somebody who says I did the briefing, it's just — it's not true . . .

GETTLIN:

Well . . .

WOODWARD:

. . . I wish I did, I'm sure it would've been more interesting.

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

You got somebody who says I did briefings?

GETTLIN:

We have information that you were not only communications watch officer but also a briefing officer, maybe did briefings.

WOODWARD:

To who?

GETTLIN:

At the White Houses and other places.

WOODWARD:

Who said that — well, what — what sort of people, I'm sure that . . .

GETTLIN:

It's — it's — it's somebody who was in a position to know, would've been in a position to know and that's why I asked you, if you say you didn't do it, I'll take your word for it.

WOODWARD:

Okay.

GETTLIN:

We'll print it a— we'll print it.

WOODWARD:

You'll — yo— you'll print what?

GETTLIN:

That you said you were not a briefer.

WOODWARD:

I wasn't.

GETTLIN:

Bob — you know, that's the point, I think . . .

WOODWARD:

But no —

GETTLIN:

You've said it and I think we're gonna . . .

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE]

COLODNY:

. . . we're — we're gonna say what you've said.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, and I think that's what you ..

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE] there are — is kinda like — there are four of us sitting at the table, there's some things you can establish - you can establish — you can establish that if you want to.

GETTLIN:

Well, you know, you don't . . .

WOODWARD:

You can.

GETTLIN:

. . . you don't like to discuss your sources, I know that and you said that publicly for many years and ee— okay, and we're not in the position to discuss our sources, all we can say is that in talking to more than one person, a number of people, we have developed information which says that while you were at — during that year at the Pentagon you not only were a communications watch officer, which you've established and we've established, but that you also were a briefer, you did briefings.

WOODWARD:

To whom, in what room, when?

GETTLIN:

At the Pentagon and . . .

WOODWARD:

It was at the Pentagon, it's a big building, where?

GETTLIN:

Well see — in the, ah

WOODWARD:

In the what?

GETTLIN:

. . . in the complex with the CNO.

WOODWARD:

What is that complex?

GETTLIN:

Well . . .

WOODWARD:

I don't know what you're talking about.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, I mean doesn't the CNO — doesn't — tell me you — you educate me . . .

WOODWARD:

Okay.

GETTLIN:

Okay, I'll -I'll ask the questions you can tell me what — whether, you know, I've got it right or not and I'll just take your word for it and we'll have to go with what we have. Does the CNO have a — have a suite of offices or area in the Pentagon where his offices are located?

WOODWARD:

Sure.

GETTLIN:

Okay, my understanding is that briefings went on there and then briefing officers, having talked to [INAUDIBLE] ..

WOODWARD:

Yes.

GETTLIN:

. . . then leave and — and go and brief other people in the government.

WOODWARD:

Now this communications watch officer is not a briefer.

GETTLIN:

No, I understand that.

WOODWARD:

Okay.

GETTLIN:

Okay, well if I . . .

WOODWARD:

It just never happened . . .

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

. . . I've — I've been here [INAUDIBLE]

GETTLIN:

You — you said that — okay — no — no . . .

WOODWARD:

You — you — you — you — have got, ah, bad sources.

GETTLIN:

Okay.

COLODNY:

Bob, let me ask you this, you — 'cause I'm gonna pick upon something you said, you said it can be established, how, if you were honest, would you establish what you just said could be established?

WOODWARD:

Well, go to your sources and say where did this happen, when did it happen, did you see it, call up and — and, ah, find out who does the communications watch officer work now and find out if they're briefers, if they give briefings, because it's all . . .

COLODNY:

Well, wha—

WOODWARD:

. . . you — you know that's in your . . .

COLODNY:

No I ca—

WOODWARD:

Look, ya— th— the quality of information is gonna be — you have somebody . . .

COLODNY:

Sure.

WOODWARD:

I mean, it just didn't happen . . .

COLODNY:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

. . . but you — and you seem to want to pin something significant on this, ah . . .

COLODNY:

I wouldn't . . .

WOODWARD:

. . . and what I'm trying . . .

COLODNY:

. . .I'm not gonna . . .

WOODWARD:

. . . to do . . .

COLODNY:

. . . I'm not trying to pin anything, I want to — I want to understand . . .

WOODWARD:

You — you — you — it's evident you're trying to pin . . .

COLODNY:

Well . . .

WOODWARD:

Come on let's not . . .

COLODNY:

Ah, well that's — that's an interpretation — okay . . .

WOODWARD:

Where you learned it in Watergate — Woodward became the cats paw for these military men, including Haig, that's called pinning.

COLODNY:

Huh, no, I'll let's you . . .

WOODWARD:

We don't have to be coy, no.

GETTLIN:

Well, we can discuss this, I mean I just want to run through the questions, if you have questions you want to ask, fine. Um, I just wanted to ask you and hear from you whether in fact — the way that year depended on, when you were also a communications watch officer, whether you also held a the title of briefer, did any briefings with anybody in the government?

WOODWARD:

Never.

GETTLIN:

Okay, um, now after you got out in, um — got out of, ah, the Navy in, what, '69, '70, excuse me, '70 da— summer of '70, um, you were gonna go to Harvard is that right, you planned to go to Harvard law school . . .

WOODWARD:

I was thinking of going to law school, ah . . .

GETTLIN:

What was that . . .

WOODWARD:

Pardon?

GETTLIN:

You were thinking — oh, you were thinking but you never went?

WOODWARD:

Never went.

GETTLIN:

Okay, okay, um . . .

WOODWARD:

Applied and was accepted and, ah, just had this feeling in five yea— I've said this before — five years of my life, ah, doing very little and, ah, decided to apply for a job at The Post.

GETTLIN:

Right.

WOODWARD:

Was given a two week try out, this is all a matter of . . .

GETTLIN:

We'll run through it real quick . . .

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE] record.

GETTLIN:

. . . I just want to ask you real quickly now, ah, the — did you — when you left in '70 at the end of your Pentagon year were you through with your obligation?

WOODWARD:

I was, I had not . . .

GETTLIN:

. . . [had not?] . . .

WOODWARD:

. . . [INAUDIBLE] the reserve.

GETTLIN:

Okay, so that sixth year, that was part of your original contract was waived somehow by . . .

WOODWARD:

I don't know . . .

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

. . . I don't know what happened.

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

. . . but I know I had an option from going into the reserves . . .

GETTLIN:

Right.

WOODWARD:

. . . or not and I chose not to.

GETTLIN:

Okay, real quick, ah, we'll finish this part up real quick 'cause we've — our time is running along, you went to the Post, ah, ah, any particular reason why, did you want to stay in Washington, did — just on a lark went to The Post or — how did that happen?

WOODWARD:

Well, I thought it would be — I'd read The Post for the year I was here, something to —if I could get a job there, start doing something.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. And was it — so was, ah, journalism was your craft, that's when — it was during the Navy you already had your sight set on becoming a journalist, is that it?

WOODWARD:

Well, I would like to say it was clearer and I was more focused, but I wasn't.

GETTLIN:

Okay, so you went to The Post and you had your two week try out and you talked to Harry Rosenfeld and you didn't make it, then what happened from there, after the two weeks he said "You're not gonna cut it, Woodward," and wh— where — what happened from there?

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE] got a job with Montgomery County Sentinel.

GETTLIN:

How did you end up going with the Sentinel?

WOODWARD:

Well, I think a number of people, including Rosenfeld or it may have been his deputy suggested that that was a good weekly paper to learn journalism.

GETTLIN:

Right. Did he in any way sort of grease the way for you to go, did he do anything for you or . . .

WOODWARD:

He may of called the editor or written him a letter.

COLODNY:

GETTLIN:

Was — was there somebody who would write a letter for you?

WOODWARD:

I don't know, ah, it's quite possible.

GETTLIN:

Could it have been somebody in the Navy that wrote a letter for you? No way?

WOODWARD:

Not to my knowledge.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Um . . .

WOODWARD:

It's possible I may have had a recommendation from someone.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, I just was curious whether the people you — commanding officers or somebody in a position of authority or a superior would know that you were — wanted to go into journalism and then you would say, "Hey, could you write me a letter?" and he in fact did.

WOODWARD:

You know, not to my knowledge.

GETTLIN:

Okay. So you went . . .

WOODWARD:

My recollection of it.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Ah, so you went to the Sentinel and, ah, you talked to the editor there and did he just hire you on the spot or, just very quickly, how did that — how did that come?

WOODWARD:

[LAUGHS] N— it's — it's been written about ad nauseam.

GETTLIN:

Yeah.

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE] by people.

GETTLIN:

Hmm-mm.

WOODWARD:

He had a number of applications and titles.

GETTLIN:

Any particular reason why?

WOODWARD:

You keep asking me the reasons why other people do . . .

GETTLIN:

[INAUDIBLE]

WOODWARD:

. . . that's very good, ah, well maybe he did tell me but I'm not — you ought ask him, his name is Roger Farquhar.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, I've talked to Farquhar. And he — he said that, um, that, ah, he had a letter that was written for — on your behalf and that it was the letter and and your eagerness and enthusiasm.

WOODWARD:

Letter from who?

GETTLIN:

From a guy in the Navy, commanding officer.

WOODWARD:

Who?

GETTLIN:

I don't — I don't know who.

WOODWARD:

I don't think that's true.

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

I may have shown him my fitness . . .

GETTLIN:

Maybe not.

WOODWARD:

Or something [like that?]

COLODNY:

He described the letter as a glowing letter of recommendation from the — from an officer in the Pentagon, that was his description of what he said was the reason, what — that plus what you may have said to him in the doorway about wanting the job so badly.

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

He remembered that quote.

WOODWARD:

I don't — I don't think there was a letter.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Um, okay, ah, I think that's pretty much —- maybe one or two more — now did you maintain contact with The Post while you were there, I mean, as— it was almost a year after that that you went to work for The Post.

WOODWARD:

That's correct.

GETTLIN:

Did they — was there an agreement that if you worked out at The Sentinel they'd hire you or . . .

WOODWARD:

No, there was no agreement, it was, you know, come back after you've learned journalism

GETTLIN:

Right, so you did and is — good stories at The Sentinel and that was — they hired you?

WOODWARD:

They did.

GETTLIN:

Right, okay, ah, when you went to The Post, what was — you went on the Metro staff and then were you a city side reporter?

WOODWARD:

Hmm-mm.

GETTLIN:

Ah, you went and I think in early — the spring of '72 Governor Wallace got shot and you did some stories on Wallace, is that right?

WOODWARD:

Right.

GETTLIN:

Ah, was that part of your regular beat?

WOODWARD:

Hnn-nn.

GETTLIN:

How did — how did you end up writing about Wallace?

WOODWARD:

Well, ah— it was pretty —I was fascinated in who might have done this and I think I think I focused on the guy who, ah, [Arthur Bremmer?].

GETTLIN:

Right, did you — had you ever meet Wallace or . . .

WOODWARD:

No.

GETTLIN:

Okay, ah, and then from there, you know, this began to you — popular history is replete with stories about how you then hooked onto Watergate so, I guess I'll turn it over to Len to take it over from there if you want to move on.

COLODNY:

I just have heard from the past the whole [INAUDIBLE], I just have some confusion and I thought maybe you could clear the confusion better than anyone else. Um, I was trying to understand the agreement that you had with your source, not who the source is, I'm not asking who the source is and I don't want to get involved in — that's not what this book is about, I'm not trying to find out who your source was that's — this game has been played so many times you — you almost get tired of reading stories about who he is and Dean's elaborate attempt to figure out exactly who the person is, but I am interested in the agreement that you had with, ah, with your source. And according to All The Presidents Men you said that you had — he sa— you said you had promised him you would never identify him or his position to anyone and, ah, further you agreed never to quote the man, even as an anonymous source and that the discussions would only confirm information that had been obtained elsewhere and, ah, to add some perspective, is that, essentially . . .

WOODWARD:

Ah — ah it's in the book?

COLODNY:

No, I'm asking you is that essentially the . . .

WOODWARD:

If that's what the book says.

COLODNY:

You — you made the agreement [INAUDIBLE] — you might — and you wrote the book so I assume that that is correct.

WOODWARD:

Go ahead, what's the question?

COLODNY:

I — what I don't understand, you have to understand that — well look at least —

GETTLIN:

Listen you're well read, two out of three isn't bad then, right?

WOODWARD:

It's library book, you didn't even buy it.

COLODNY:

Well, I can't afford it.

GETTLIN:

Listen I've got — I've got a score card . . .

WOODWARD:

Okay.

COLODNY:

Ah, as — as everly always observant Woodward, right, ah, it won't — story about the, ah — in the November meeting that you had with your source . . .

WOODWARD:

Which November and when?

COLODNY:

1973, which is probably, based on this, the last meeting that took place and which you said Throat's message was short and simple, one or more of the tapes contained deliberate erasures.

WOODWARD:

Hmm.

COLODNY:

Describe the meeting as occurring in the first week in, ah, November 1973, there's no date on it but that's definitely it, it seems to me there's some confusion between . . . [ABOUT 20-25 SECONDS OF BLANK TAPE]

WOODWARD:

COLODNY:

This is the article right here as a result of that, that . . .

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

. . . that disclosure to you.

WOODWARD:

[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

COLODNY:

. . .if you want to look at that, fine with me. [PAUSE]

WOODWARD:

And the question?

COLODNY:

The question is, as you look on the next page, you'll see underlined . . .

WOODWARD:

Yeah?

COLODNY:

It seems to me that if we have a number of evolutions, so tell me, but it is clear to me that that's who you're quoting, uh, as a White House source . . . c Uh, the Nixon Administration is what the story is about. It's a story about an administration that soared. That took off and soared and in the end, crashed. You reported the crash. And that part of it is, is clear in the book and there's no misunderstanding. But what we tried to look at was all the other things that were going on. Uh, be—, prior to that, who Nix—, you know, what was really happening here? What kind of President was Richard Nixon and what kind of enemies did he develop?

WOODWARD:

(coughs)

COLODNY:

And how did this crash happen? And we think that that's what the book's about and it more accurately reflects your role, uh, as a reporter of, of the crash, and what was that crash all about. And who were his enemies? And who really wanted to do Richard Nixon in? The pub—, the perception of, uh, Richard Nixon. The uh, anti-communist, the, the Democrats hate him. The Liberals hate him. That kind of, so really that's what you have. A, an administration that soars to the greatest heights in foreign policy, changes the world in, in, in many ways, and then crashes. Why did it crash? And what was going on in those early years that would've led to that kind of a crash? So, I think that's an accurate description of what this book is today, and you're correct in saying, yes, that's the way it started. But we followed the facts, and let the facts determine what the story was.

WOODWARD:

We—, we will deal with facts this morning, go ahead.

GETTLIN:

Okay, so, do you have any problems with the story now, at that point?

WOODWARD:

In what?

GETTLIN:

Well, dealing with the ROTC. We're just trying to do uh, uh, quick, a quick run through, and just so —

WOODWARD:

It's a matter of record I was in NROTC unit.

GETTLIN:

Right, uh, what I was interested is uh, just quickly, jazz this uh, how you, why you decided to go in ROTC. What the competition was like to get in, uh, the decision to go to Yale. There's been other things written about it but I, you know, I wanna deal, get it from you, uh —

WOODWARD:

It's not, doesn't have anything to do with Richard Nixon, I assure you.

GETTLIN:

Well that, that may be, but we're just trying to lay a groundwork, I mean, I'm just trying to very quickly determine what the thinking back right out of high school, what it was that prompted you to go in ROTC, the Navy, and Yale, and so forth.

WOODWARD:

Well my father was in the Navy. It was a scholarship. The draft was inevitable at that point. Uh, so it looked like everyone was gonna have to serve and it seemed to be a good way to do it.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. Was it the kind of, uh, was it intense competition to get these things? Were they a big deal? Were they not a big deal? Why maybe you rather than just —

WOODWARD:

I just answered.

GETTLIN:

Because your father was in the Navy?

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

GETTLIN:

What about competition to get into the ROTC?

WOODWARD:

I don't know.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Uh, well, when you went to Yale, um, when you were in the NROTC program, uh, what was, what kind of classes did you take to prepare for your specialty? Can you tell me a little bit about what it was like at Yale being in the ROTC?

WOODWARD:

No, there was no flexibility. You took one course a year.

GETTLIN:

Was there any specialty that you prepared for there?

WOODWARD:

No. There was no choice. They dictated what it was.

GETTLIN:

What about the summer cruises and so forth? What were they all about?

WOODWARD:

Those were also dictated.

GETTLIN:

What, can you describe what they, where you went or what you did, or what —

WOODWARD:

Aircraft carrier, uh, first year, marine and flight training. Second cruise, on a destroyer, mat 13.

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm. And when you got out, you were, uh, an ensign, at that point?

WOODWARD:

Correct.

GETTLIN:

Right? Yeah. Did you have, you didn't have any specific training? How, your first orders were to go to the Wright?

WOODWARD:

Correct.

GETTLIN:

Is that correct? Is there any particular reason why or do you know why they, you were selected to go to the Wright, was it just random or —?

WOODWARD:

(laughs) No idea.

GETTLIN:

You've no, you have no idea why you were —

WOODWARD:

I was a radio handler when I was a kid.

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm.

WOODWARD:

And it was a communications ship and navigate (inaudible)

GETTLIN:

What was your job on the Wright?

WOODWARD:

Circuit Control Officer.

GETTLIN:

And what did that entail?

WOODWARD:

Uh, entailed (pause) run, running the uh, group of uh, radio men who ran all the circuits that the Wright (inaudible)

GETTLIN:

What, what kind of the ship was the Wright? It was, uh, it was a refurbished aircraft carrier, is that right?

WOODWARD:

Correct.

GETTLIN:

What, what was its assignments, function, commanding communications for —

WOODWARD:

It was what was called NEC Pod. National Emergency Command Post —

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm.

WOODWARD:

Relocation site for the President or National Command Authority in an emergency.

GETTLIN:

Was the President ever aboard when you were there?

WOODWARD:

Uh, Johnson came aboard once briefly.

GETTLIN:

When you were an officer —

WOODWARD:

Right.

GETTLIN:

—on the Wright ship. (pause) What uh, now you mentioned before about your security clearance. What kind of security clearances did you have as a —

WOODWARD:

Top secret crypto.

GETTLIN:

—uh—, Top secret crypto. What is — yeah, and I don't, I don't know the, the ins and outs of —

WOODWARD:

I realize that.

GETTLIN:

Okay, well maybe you can educate me a little bit. What is, where does that fall in the line of —

WOODWARD:

It, it is not in intelligence as I've been tempted to tell you. Uh, clearance and all. It's for the cryptographic machines, and, cope cards that uh, are used in communications.

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm. Uh, so what, without revealing anything that would, you know be—

WOODWARD:

(coughs)

GETTLIN:

— you know, top secret or anything, well, you can say what you want I guess. I'm just trying to get an idea, what kinds of information came in to the Wright that you would process, or the guys that you were with would process information.

WOODWARD:

It, it, it's essentially a uh, an emergency relocation command post. It's waiting —

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm.

WOODWARD:

—for the crisis which never came.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. So what was that two year period like? Was it, you guys were sort of sitting around, or was it actually copy —

WOODWARD:

I think it was two and a half years on the —

GETTLIN:

Oh, okay.

WOODWARD:

You know, lot of watches, led routines, Navy ship board.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. Would you consider it an assignment that was uh, prestigious assignment, or one that —, I mean did eve—, did most guys coming out of Yale —

WOODWARD:

(coughs)

GETTLIN:

—or out of ROTC get these kinds of, I mean it was—, they wouldn't select just anybody, right? For a top secret crypto job, or maybe they would, I don't know.

WOODWARD:

(coughs) Well, it'd be, it certainly was not one of the prestigious assignments.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Now, you went to the—, you left the Wright, after two, two and a half years. Um, what were your orders at that point?

WOODWARD:

I got orders to Vietnam, and I asked to have them changed to go to another ship.

GETTLIN:

What, do you remember specifically what the orders were? To go to Vietnam and do what?

WOODWARD:

I think it was to be a technical watch officer in Camtoe Providence.

GETTLIN:

And what would that have en—, was that (pause) on a boat?

WOODWARD:

(inaudible)

GETTLIN:

Was that, was that on a boat or was that —

WOODWARD:

No, it was in a, an operation center.

GETTLIN:

Right, okay. How did those get changed?

WOODWARD:

I requested it.

GETTLIN:

Um, do you remember the procedure you went through and all that?

WOODWARD:

Wrote a letter and said I'd rather go to sea. I didn't wanna go to Vietnam.

GETTLIN:

Do you remember who you wrote to, or who changed the orders?

WOODWARD:

The detailer.

GETTLIN:

Oh, okay, so each guy in the Navy has a, has a detail officer, is that right?

WOODWARD:

Correct.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. Um, and you just went through a normal procedure to just request — I, my understanding was that it wasn't easy to get out of Vietnam.

WOODWARD:

(coughs) Well I made the trip to Washington to talk to my detailer.

GETTLIN:

From, where were you?

WOODWARD:

(inaudible)

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm. So you said I wanna go —

WOODWARD:

And I wrote a letter and, sat down and talked to the guy.

GETTLIN:

And, just like that, said I don't wanna go to Vietnam. Find me another assignment?

WOODWARD:

Correct. I'd rather be on a ship.

GETTLIN:

It was that easy? Okay.

WOODWARD:

No.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Was there anybo—, and then so the detailer made the decision.

WOODWARD:

I believe so.

GETTLIN:

I mean, nobody higher up or anything had to have —

WOODWARD:

Not that I know of.

GETTLIN:

Okay. So you—

COLODNY:

Were those, were those orders that you had, Bob, were they cut already the time you got an original?

WOODWARD:

Yes.

GETTLIN:

Um, so you went, did they assign you to the Fox? And they said, okay, you don't wanna go to Vietnam?

WOODWARD:

That's correct.

GETTLIN:

Okay, so you went to the Fox and what was your, and were you an ensign now or were you a lieutenant JG?

WOODWARD:

No, I was a lieutenant JG or a lieutenant.

COLODNY:

I think, I think it was JG that you had on the Fox.

WOODWARD:

I was a JG.

COLODNY:

Yeah.

GETTLIN:

So you, they assigned you to the Fox.

WOODWARD:

Communications officer.

GETTLIN:

Okay, now that was different from a radio officer. That you had on the Wright. Now, was that a step up?

WOODWARD:

Well I was in, I was in charge of communications for the whole ship.

GETTLIN:

Can you describe, as you did about the Wright, what that entailed?

WOODWARD:

Well, maybe fifteen or twenty radio men, a key officer of fitness, uh, waste communications (inaudible — loud background noise).

GETTLIN:

And you guys were based through where, San Diego, but you took, I think a number of trips to South China Sea, or I guess it was called, what was it called Yankee Station is what the reference was to the mach—

WOODWARD:

Well it was, we basic—, well, one must have cruise while I was there.

GETTLIN:

Well, what was the Wright's assignment on those? Were, were you in uh, —

WOODWARD:

For the Fox?

GETTLIN:

I'm sorry, the Fox. What was the Fox acting in support of any military operation of any kind?

WOODWARD:

(coughs) They were uh, we, we were radar picket channel. Uh, it was called the parade station.

GETTLIN:

Umm.

WOODWARD:

I forget what that stands for, uh, (pause) we, we had one position we had to kind of circle around in, uh, off the coast of Vietnam and they acted as a radar guidance ship um, for planes.

GETTLIN:

For planes that were doing air strikes on Vietnam?

WOODWARD:

And, all kinds of air traffic.

GETTLIN:

Was there, how about the security clearances on the Fox. Were they similar to the Wright?

WOODWARD:

Same thing.

GETTLIN:

—top secret crypto?

WOODWARD:

They, that's correct and they, they had an embarked uh, intelligence team. Uh —

GETTLIN:

Wha—, what was that all about?

WOODWARD:

Well, uh, I don't know, because I wasn't cleared for it.

GETTLIN:

The Wright, excuse me, the Fox had embarked intelligence team?

WOODWARD:

That's correct, it was about, just, they would come and go, they had some um, (pause) they had something they were doing at, at, I think it was uh, what do they call 'em, C.T.'s, Communications Technicians.

GETTLIN:

Oh, I see.

WOODWARD:

—for the intelligence enlisted people.

GETTLIN:

So would the Fox be a ship that would be specifically assigned for that kind of thing, or, or —

WOODWARD:

No, I think whatever ship came, and assumed those duties had the, uh, team involved.

GETTLIN:

Okay.

COLODNY:

This is the Fox's maiden voyage to uh, Vietnam?

WOODWARD:

No, it was not.

COLODNY:

It was not.

WOODWARD:

We had been there previously.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, the Fox had—, I think the Fox first sailed in 19—, in I guess '67.

COLODNY:

It did get reclassified at a point, too. With, during the SALT treaty, didn't somehow or another they reclassified it from what it was originally built to be, in order to be—

GETTLIN:

Or, you know, we weren't aware of that.

WOODWARD:

After I was gone.

COLODNY:

It would've been after, it was after you were gone anyway.

WOODWARD:

I'm sure it was.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Bob Welander was the captain of the ship during a period when you were there. Uh, what, what was your relationship —

WOODWARD:

With who?

GETTLIN:

—then Captain Welander. Now retired Rear Admiral.

WOODWARD:

Um, we got along.

GETTLIN:

Any —

WOODWARD:

He was, he was my boss. He was uh, you know, a dynamic, uh, (pause) skipper, somebody moving up.

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm. Um, just, just a procedural thing. Uh, how many officers would be aboard the Wright? You were what, one of maybe 25, 26, maybe?

WOODWARD:

No, I don't think, fifteen maybe.

GETTLIN:

So there was —

WOODWARD:

But it, it could be twelve, it could be eighteen.

GETTLIN:

Right. Out of a crew of what? A couple hundred, perhaps?

WOODWARD:

I think three hundred.

GETTLIN:

So, uh, and the officers, you know, you guys ate together and you know, rubbed shoulders together all the time, so uh, I, it's just my understanding what, of what, I've never been in the Navy or been on a naval vessel. What it, you know, what life is like among the officer quarter of the ship. Uh, my understanding is you get to know each other pretty well. I'm just wondered how much you got to know then Captain Welander. (inaudible) Got along with. I assume you were out, out at sea, it would be best to get along with your captain. Anything more than that?

WOODWARD:

No.

GETTLIN:

Um, now, he left the Fox, I think, before you did and then a guy named Ward came on and runs it. When, after Welander left the Fox, did you have any further contact with him? Did you keep any kind of relationship up with him?

WOODWARD:

He was a, uh, counsel on Foreign Relations [UNINTELLIGIBLE], I believe, for a year and I think we exchanged letters once.

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm. Uh, have you had any contact with him in the years since the Fox at all, I mean talked to him or met with him, or any kind of dealings with him at all?

WOODWARD:

Maybe just once, once or twice. Um, as you know, and this is a matter of record, uh, I think Carl and I wrote the first story identifying him as the Kissinger, uh, aide who was fired or relieved or transferred depending on how you look at it.

GETTLIN:

Yeah.

WOODWARD:

The red or —

GETTLIN:

Right. So did you talk to him around that time?

WOODWARD:

Sure did.

GETTLIN:

Do you 'member the circumstances you —

WOODWARD:

Well I (coughs) — have you gone into the record of that in terms of —-

GETTLIN:

Of what?

WOODWARD:

—what's published in the Post and other newspapers?

GETTLIN:

On what, the Moorer-Radford issue?

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

GETTLIN:

Oh yeah, sure.

COLODNY:

You broke the story on the twelfth of January 19— in which—

WOODWARD:

And we were the first to name him.

COLODNY:

Yeah, you had a picture of him on the front page —

WOODWARD:

That's right. It was the lead story of the paper.

COLODNY:

Yeah, right. And it was uh, it was the, the big story of that day.

WOODWARD:

Um-hmm.

COLODNY:

And you ran a follow-up story the second day. Uh, you and Carl, and Sy was running pretty much in the same ball park that you were running in at that point. At that point, now the two of you—

WOODWARD:

But I think Squire of the Tribune broke —

COLODNY:

Tribune —

WOODWARD:

—the story, because it was the, the big uh, national security mystery that Nixon had bizarre citings as to why some of this should not be opened up.

GETTLIN:

Right.

COLODNY:

Well, somebody wanted the story out, obviously at that point in time there had been—, I, I think I'm right —

GETTLIN:

Well, let me, let me move back to, to [UNINTELLIGIBLE] a second before I lose my train. So it was around that time that you may have talked to him that, I mean, here you're in a, you're serving a, I would guess a sort of a plain position, your former, you're now no longer in the Navy. You're now a, where you, it's '74. So water—, I mean, you're a noted guy now because of the Watergate coverage. And you call up your former commanding officer and say, hey I'm about to reveal all this stuff. Uh, is that how it happened?

WOODWARD:

Well, you know, that's, uh, how many years ago?

GETTLIN:

Yeah, it's a long time.

WOODWARD:

About fifteen years ago. I'd have to go back and look at the story. Um, I recall talking to him or talking to his wife and saying, we're writing this story and, I don't, and I think he would not talk about it.

GETTLIN:

Hmm. Did you ever, do you remember if you had any contact with him prior to that January '74 period when you were writing the story about him?

WOODWARD:

The Watergate story?

COLODNY:

No.

GETTLIN:

No, no, no. The Mo—

COLODNY:

The Moorer-Radford.

GETTLIN:

The one you just mentioned. The Moorer-Radford.

COLODNY:

The Moorer-Radford.

GETTLIN:

You guys first named him.

WOODWARD:

Not that I recall. I don't know why I would've.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, okay. Uh, how about post-Watergate? Have you had any contact with him since then?

COLODNY:

After the Moorer-Radford story.

GETTLIN:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

Post-Moorer-Radford. (laughs)

WOODWARD:

I think we've talked twice.

GETTLIN:

Recently, or not recently, a long time ago?

WOODWARD:

Oh, let's see. I think recently I think I wanted to talk to him. Bill and I are doing a little project on the Pentagon.

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm.

WOODWARD:

And then I had one other discussion which I'm not, which is, uh, like everyone in the Moorer-Radford affair, there are many versions of it. I'm just trying to find out what really happened.

GETTLIN:

Oh, so you're writing about the Moorer-Radford?

WOODWARD:

No, no,—

GETTLIN:

Oh, no.

WOODWARD:

— no, no. This, I'm, I'm just saying generally in the Pentagon, I called him —

GETTLIN:

Oh.

WOODWARD:

—but he was uh, off on a sailing trip and I have not talked to him since. Um, but sometime in the '70's after Nixon left —

GETTLIN:

Yes.

WOODWARD:

—all of us, after Nixon resigned.

GETTLIN:

Uh-huh.

WOODWARD:

Uh, I think I may have had one short, maybe two, trying to find out what was going on.

GETTLIN:

With the Moorer-Radford thing?

WOODWARD:

Yeah. I was unsuccessful. (laughs)

GETTLIN:

Well, and as you say, there's different versions —

COLODNY:

Did you feel funny about that? Uh, just off the cuff, I mean he, I tried to put myself in your place as I read the articles that you wrote, and I'm not, I don't see anything sinister in it. I'm just thinking what it must be like to have to go back to your old commanding officer and, the—, it had to be some personal feeling beyond just being a reporter. I me—, I mean that, would seem just the human, 'cause this had to be —

WOODWARD:

Well I, I, just uh —

COLODNY:

—this had to be very embarrassing to Welander himself.

WOODWARD:

Well I know. (pause) I guess I would cite it as an example of uh, the newspaper and my independence, um. He was a, a former skipper and somebody I knew, but um, the, names were being taken and uh, we went ahead and did it.

COLODNY:

Right.

GETTLIN:

Okay, well, let's, let's run through the chronology again. So, you left the Fox, uh, after about two years. Now what happened at that point? You then went to the Pentagon, after the Fox.

WOODWARD:

Well I had submitted my resignation uh, —

GETTLIN:

My understanding, let me just interrupt a second. The NROTC contract, as I understand it, required four years active, two years inactive reserve or something like that.

WOODWARD:

I don't know what it was, I know four years, hey?

GETTLIN:

Yeah. So at the end of the four years, which otherwise normally would've been the period that you would not have been able to leave, you did. So, what, what happened there?

WOODWARD:

Do you know why I did?

GETTLIN:

Well you've told me on the phone that you —

WOODWARD:

I submitted my resig—

GETTLIN:

—that you resigned —

WOODWARD:

I submitted my resignation uh, January '69.

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm.

WOODWARD:

And my four years would be up in the summer.

GETTLIN:

Right.

WOODWARD:

Hoping to get out.

GETTLIN:

Right.

WOODWARD:

But I think in '67, uh, the Secretary of the Navy had issued an order saying all regular officers, and I was one, are extended for, for twelve months.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Uh, I had mentioned to you that I had had (phone ringing, dog barking) trouble finding a record, I'm su—, you know —

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

GETTLIN:

Uh, maybe I didn't, obviously didn't look in the right place. You said Secretary of the Navy, as far as you —

WOODWARD:

Or the CNO. I've got a thing upstairs I'll show you. He's a best — (Background conversation)

GETTLIN:

Um, so actually two years prior to that, I mean this is '67, something you probably didn't even know about when you submitted your resignation, that this order had —

WOODWARD:

Did you just park in the driveway?

GETTLIN:

Yeah.

WOODWARD:

Here?

GETTLIN:

Yeah, I did.

WOODWARD:

That lady wants to get out.

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

Why don't one of you move it.

GETTLIN:

Why don't—, I better move it 'cause it's —, why don't you — (Background noise, talking, coughing )

COLODNY:

I had the uh, the months, uh, just to refresh your memory of the, of wait, of the months it took to end up lieutenant, you became a lieutenant on (background voices) on July 1 of '68.

WOODWARD:

Is that right?

COLODNY:

Yes, and you, you had like seventeen months —

WOODWARD:

What? (Background voices)

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 3:

Go out to the left.

GETTLIN:

What out the driveway and to the left?

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 3:

Out to the little green pavement street that's facing you mostly that way.

GETTLIN:

Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 3:

Okay? (coughing)

COLODNY:

It was seventeen months as an ensign and nineteen months 'til you became a, lieutenant. (pause)

WOODWARD:

Are you really gonna publish this stuff, Len?

COLODNY:

You honestly believe Bob, that St. Martin's, is saying okay folks, we're gonna hand you a lot of money to write a book and we didn't have to support what we say in there? I think that wouldn't be —

WOODWARD:

But it, it's dead ass wrong.

COLODNY:

Well, well I mean, that's one —, I think it's one of the reasons we're here Bob. In other words, one of the things when you, when it was a, what I thought was a deadlock with us, the inability to communicate, I didn't think it was fair. Uh, when we got to meet your uh, your agent, your agent Artian, had received a call from Alice, at uh, Simon & Schuster. And said that we had an interview. And you'd told Washingtonian, well, you didn't wanna help with the project. And I felt that it wasn't fair. We've read all these other stories that you've read. I don't think that's going to the horse's mouth and asking him —

WOODWARD:

Well, that's, that's why we're gonna spend this —

COLODNY:

Uh —

WOODWARD:

—time doing it.

COLODNY:

I mean I don't, I don't think we're being unfair. And I think that it's important not to read it somewhere else.

WOODWARD:

Right.

COLODNY:

I think it's, I, I think that it would be unfair to read what other people have written, whether it's Halberstam or Hougan, and make a judgement, without going through this material with you and saying this is, you know what's the real story? I don't see the point. I didn't see the point in that. And I'd always pushed, Bob, uh, on this side —

WOODWARD:

But —

COLODNY:

—of the story. (phone rings) Because we've got —

WOODWARD:

I'll get it.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 3:

I'll get it.

WOODWARD:

Go ahead. Thank you.

COLODNY:

We had contradictory testimony. Testimony, you're saying one thing. Hougan's saying another. Halberstam's saying —

WOODWARD:

Who's saying another time?

COLODNY:

I'm saying you're saying one thing —

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

Hougan's saying another thing. Uh, somebody else is saying something else. Halberstam writes something else. It, you end up in a situation, where the only person that, and I know you wouldn't do this as a reporter. You wouldn't just take some—, something you read in a book, and say, that's the way it is and that's the way it happened. So that, that, to me this is much, this is asking you (background noises — chair being moved) and we, I, I feel a very strong obligation to print what Bob Woodward says and not what somebody else says about Bob Wood—, and let it stand alone. I don't think it —

WOODWARD:

Right.

COLODNY:

And that's the way we've —

WOODWARD:

But there's, there's, okay, good. Let's proceed —

GETTLIN:

Yeah, okay.

WOODWARD:

—we've got one hour left. So you might wanna —

GETTLIN:

Okay so —

WOODWARD:

We can use it any way you want.

GETTLIN:

Right. Well, we're gonna, I'm gonna be through this pretty soon. Okay we're back to the Pentagon. So you mentioned that, (sniffs) there's something upstairs which describes the —

WOODWARD:

The, the, the —

GETTLIN:

—extension.

WOODWARD:

The—, they sent out a, a —

GETTLIN:

Yeah.

WOODWARD:

— an all man. Do you know what that is? To all Navy saying we're, we are extending these officers uh, for one year.

GETTLIN:

Right.

WOODWARD:

And I became the —

GETTLIN:

Was it all, all officers —

WOODWARD:

All regular officers.

GETTLIN:

Didn't have anything to do with your particular specialty or uh, or . . .

COLODNY:

What is a regular officer as opposed to —

WOODWARD:

I, I, eh, what's called an eleven hundred officer. Somebody who, uh, it's a, it's a designation for somebody who may stay in the Navy permanently. You know, that's like somebody who goes into the Naval Academy.

GETTLIN:

Uh, they had, did they have any indication that you were gonna be a career guy, or?

WOODWARD:

That's what the regular scholarship was. It's like going to the Naval Academy.

COLODNY:

Oh. Oh, see I, I was under the —

WOODWARD:

You have the same designation.

GETTLIN:

But there was no, was there any indication, that, had you made any indication to the Navy that you were interested —

WOODWARD:

No. As I —

GETTLIN:

—in staying on? I was —

WOODWARD:

As I told you, I'd resigned in '69.

GETTLIN:

Um.

WOODWARD:

Submitted my letter of resignation. It was not accepted. It was delayed one year.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Um, now you went to the Pentagon. What was, you went to work uh, in the CNO's office. What was your job then?

WOODWARD:

It's, uh, I was a Communications Watch Officer.

GETTLIN:

And again, what did you —

WOODWARD:

This is a matter of record.

GETTLIN:

Right. What, what about the se—, the clearances there?

WOODWARD:

Top Secret Crypto. No intelligence, no special intelligence clearances.

GETTLIN:

Well there's been a lot, again, as Len said, some of this may be on the record, but who knows if it's right or not? That's why we kind of plowed it around again.

WOODWARD:

Um, on, on what record?

GETTLIN:

Well I mean, people have written about what you may or may not have done. So I'm saying —

WOODWARD:

Never had intelligence clearances.

GETTLIN:

No.

WOODWARD:

It's a matter of record.

GETTLIN:

Right, okay.

WOODWARD:

What I think you can establish that from the Pentagon with the little he knew of me.

GETTLIN:

I haven't—, I haven't had any indication that you were in intelligence.

COLODNY:

We have absolutely no evidence that you had—, our narrow view was to tape it —

WOODWARD:

I wasn't.

COLODNY:

Well I'm saying —

GETTLIN:

We haven't —

COLODNY:

We have, we have not come up across a shred of evidence that indicates you were ever in Naval Intelligence.

GETTLIN:

I'm just asking you what, again as you discussed the Wright and the Fox, what the, the job was as a Communications Watch Officer on the CNO staff. I mean, you were at the Pentagon. Were you in a basement room and did crypt—, you know what kind of messages came in, did you supervise guys, did you read digests, I mean—, just a little —

WOODWARD:

I was in charge of uh, on a watch basis of all the communications coming to the CNO or actually to the whole Navy Department including the Secretary of Defense.

GETTLIN:

Um, and what is it, you basically just work there, I mean, did you go any where else? Did you have any other functions on top —

WOODWARD:

(coughs) Sometimes I went other places like had career duty in the White House occasionally.

GETTLIN:

What did that involve?

WOODWARD:

It's gut work carrying some documents. There were, a folder down.

GETTLIN:

In other words, Moorer or one of his guys would say go take this over to somebody at the White House and you would rush over there and drop it off.

WOODWARD:

It wouldn't be Moorer. It would be uh, (pause) in other words it would be regular runs, or somebody at—, you know, somebody would say, you need to go over there and —

GETTLIN:

Yeah. So it would just be a matter of dropping something off and leaving?

WOODWARD:

Sure. (coughs) Sometimes a little bit longer. But you, it's you oughta understand this, if you get, it is not um, communications function like this is strictly, um, nuts and bolts. It's not substantive. It's not making decisions. It's not writing time. Getting message A or document A from here to here.

GETTLIN:

Any place else besides the White House, like the CIA or NSA or —

WOODWARD:

For the, never the CIA. Never CIA. I think maybe the State Department, a couple of times.

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm. Again was this, now you mention it's gut work and other people have written that it was a boring job which you hated and—, is that accurate?

WOODWARD:

It was boring.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. Um, so you were just kind of running around gophering. I mean, is that really what it was like?

WOODWARD:

Ah, you could (coughs) read operational messages coming in. Sometimes there would be a crisis and you could read the uh, reports coming from Vietnam. You had the access to all the uh, operational, non-intelligence, so you could follow the, doing a lot of inner strengths in Vietnam. And I believe that (coughs) uh, the Vietnamization program was getting off the ground. We followed that.

GETTLIN:

During that year, did you, as when you were working in the Pentagon, you mentioned you were Communications Watch Officer. Did you have any other job? Any other function?

WOODWARD:

No.

GETTLIN:

Nothing at all?

WOODWARD:

Nothing at all.

GETTLIN:

Did you do any briefing with people.

WOODWARD:

Never.

GETTLIN:

Never, did you, um --

WOODWARD:

In that I defy you to produce somebody who says I did a briefing. I don't, really, I wish I did. I'm sure it would've been more interesting.

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

Do you got somebody who says I did a briefing?

GETTLIN:

We have information that you were not only Communications Watch Officer, but also a Briefing Officer. That you did briefings.

WOODWARD:

To whom?

GETTLIN:

At the White House and other places.

WOODWARD:

Who says that? Well, what, what sort of people I'm sure you have ...

GETTLIN:

It's, it's, it's somebody who was in a position to know. Would've been in a position to know. And that's why I asked you. If you said you didn't do it, I'll take your word for it.

WOODWARD:

Okay.

COLODNY:

We'll print it. We'll print it.

WOODWARD:

I hope, I hope, I hope you--, you'll print what?

COLODNY:

You said you were not a Briefing Officer.

WOODWARD:

I wasn't.

COLODNY:

Bob, you know, that's the point --

WOODWARD:

But, no, okay, but what you see --

COLODNY:

You said it, and we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna say what you said.

COLODNY:

Yeah. And I think that's what you want us to say.

WOODWARD:

Okay, but there are--, it's kind of like there are four of us sitting at the table, there's some things you can establish. You can establish them if you want.

GETTLIN:

Well, you know, you don't, you don't like to discuss your sources, I know that. And you said that publicly for many years and you, okay? And we're not in a position to discuss our sources. All we can say is that in talking to more than one person, a number of people, we have developed information which says that while you were at -- during that year at the Pentagon, you not only were a Communications Watch Officer, which you've established and we've established, but that you also were a briefer and debriefed.

WOODWARD:

To whom? In what room? When?

GETTLIN:

At the Pentagon, and that's --

WOODWARD:

At, well at the Pentagon, it's a big building.

GETTLIN:

What's it --

WOODWARD:

Where?

GETTLIN:

Whew. In the, uh --

WOODWARD:

In the what?

GETTLIN:

In the complex with the CNO.

WOODWARD:

Where is that complex?

GETTLIN:

Well I don't know --

WOODWARD:

Do you know what you're talking about?

GETTLIN:

Yes, I mean, doesn't the CNO, isn't, tell me, you, you educate me.

WOODWARD:

Okay.

GETTLIN:

Okay, I'll, I'll ask the question, you can tell me what, whether, you know I've got it right or not and I'll just take your word for it and we'll have to go with what we have. Does the CNO have a, have a suite of offices or an area in the Pentagon where his offices are located?

WOODWARD:

Sure.

GETTLIN:

Okay. My understanding is that briefings went on there, and then Briefing Offices, having talked to former Briefing Officers --

WOODWARD:

Um-hmm..

GETTLIN:

Then leave, and, and go and brief other people in the government.

WOODWARD:

Admiral Keachum's Watch Officer is not a briefer.

GETTLIN:

No. I understand that.

WOODWARD:

Okay, okay, but --

GETTLIN:

What I mean --

WOODWARD:

--it, it just never happened this, uh, I looked you in the eye --

GETTLIN:

Okay Bob, you said that no, no --

WOODWARD:

You, you, you have got, uh, bad sources.

COLODNY:

Okay. Bob, let me ask you this, 'cause I wanna pick up on something you said. You said it can be established. How, if you were on the street, would you establish what you just said could be established?

WOODWARD:

Well, go to your sources and say, where did this happen? When did it happen? Did you see it? Call up and, and uh, find out who does the Communications Watch Officer work now. And find out if they're briefers. If they give briefings. If there's a st--

COLODNY:

No we're can --

WOODWARD:

But you know, that's in your --

COLODNY:

No I can't --

GETTLIN:

That's all right.

WOODWARD:

I mean, look, the quality of information is, gonna be, you have somebody?

GETTLIN:

Sure.

WOODWARD:

I mean it just didn't happen but you, and you seem to wanna pin something significant on this. Uh, --

COLODNY:

I wouldn't pin, I'm not saying --

WOODWARD:

Is what I'm trying to do is --

COLODNY:

I'm not trying to pin anything. I wanna, I wanna understand - -

WOODWARD:

You, you, you, it's evident, you're trying to pin.

COLODNY:

Well --

WOODWARD:

Come on, let's not --

COLODNY:

Well, um, now that's, that's an interpretation.

GETTLIN:

Okay wait --

WOODWARD:

We learned in Watergate, Woodward became the cat's paw for these military men [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

GETTLIN:

Hah. You know I'll let you --

WOODWARD:

We don't get to be [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

GETTLIN:

Well we can discuss this, I mean I just wanna run through the questions.

WOODWARD:

Sure.

GETTLIN:

If you have questions you wanna ask, it's fine. Um, I just wanted to ask you and hear from you, whether in fact during that year in the Pentagon, when you were also Communications Watch Officer, whether you also held the title of briefer, or did any briefings of anybody in the government.

WOODWARD:

Never.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Um, now after you got out in the, you got out of, uh --

WOODWARD:

Um-hmm.

GETTLIN:

--the Navy in what '69, '70, excuse me. '70. Um, summer of '70. Um, you were gonna go to Harvard. Is that right? Planning to go to Harvard Law School at one point, or what --

WOODWARD:

I was thinking of going to law school when --

GETTLIN:

What was that?

WOODWARD:

Pardon?

GETTLIN:

You were thi--, oh, you were thinking, but you never went.

WOODWARD:

Never went.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Good, um, --

WOODWARD:

I applied and was accepted in uh, [UNINTELLIGIBLE] in five years.

GETTLIN:

Right.

WOODWARD:

I've said this before. Five years of my life. Doing very little. And uh, decided to apply for a job at the Post.

GETTLIN:

Right.

WOODWARD:

I was given a two-week try-out. I matter --

GETTLIN:

We'll run through it real quick.

WOODWARD:

If I understand the question correctly.

GETTLIN:

I just wanted to ask you real quickly uh, uh, the, did you, when you left the Navy at the end of your Pentagon year, were you through with your obligation?

WOODWARD:

I was.

GETTLIN:

And you had not --

WOODWARD:

I did not go into the reserve.

GETTLIN:

Okay. So that, sixth year that was part of the original contract was waived somehow by the --

WOODWARD:

I don't know. I don't know what happened. But I know I had an option if I'm going into --

GETTLIN:

Right.

WOODWARD:

-- the reserves or not. And I chose not to.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Real quick, uh, we'll finish this part up real quick, 'cause we've, our time is running a, low. You went to the Post uh, uh, any particular reason why? Did you wanna stay in Washington and just on a lark went to the Post, or? How did that happen?

WOODWARD:

Well, I thought it would be, I'd read the Post for the year I was here and something, if I could get a job there and start doing something.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, and was it, so it was uh, journalism was your preference, I mean, was it during the Navy that you, had you-- , your sights set on becoming a journalist? Is that it?

WOODWARD:

Well, I would like to say it was clear and I was more focused, but I wasn't.

GETTLIN:

Okay. So you went to the Post and, you had your two week tryout and you talked to Rosenfeld and you didn't make it, and then what happened to the plan, after the two weeks you said you're not gonna cut it with 'em, and what, where, where, what happened from there.

WOODWARD:

Worked at the Mont--, got a job at the Montgomery Times Sentinel.

GETTLIN:

How did you end up going to the Sentinel?

WOODWARD:

(coughs) Well, I think a number of people including Rosenfeld, or it may have been his deputy, suggested that that was a good weekly paper to learn journalism.

GETTLIN:

Right. Did he in any way, sort of grease the way for you to go? Did he do anything for you or --

WOODWARD:

(coughs) He may have called the editor or written him a letter.

GETTLIN:

Um, that's one of the things I wanted to ask about. Was, well, did somebody write a letter for you?

WOODWARD:

I don't know. Uh, it's quite possible.

GETTLIN:

Could it have been somebody in the Navy that wrote a letter for you? No way?

WOODWARD:

Not to my knowledge.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Um, --

WOODWARD:

It's possible I may have had a recommendation from someone.

GETTLIN:

Yeah I just was curious whether the (pause) people you, commanding officers or somebody in a position of authority or superior, would've known that you were, wanted to go into journalism, and then you would've said, hey, could you write me a letter and they, in fact, did. You know --

WOODWARD:

Not to my knowledge.

GETTLIN:

Okay, so you went --

WOODWARD:

To my recollection, no.

GETTLIN:

Um, so you went to the Sentinel and, um, talked to the editor there and he just hired you on the spot, or just very quickly how did that, how did that go?

WOODWARD:

(coughs) Well it, it's been written about how Gozian --

GETTLIN:

Yeah.

WOODWARD:

--hired people.

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm.

WOODWARD:

Had a number of applications, hired me.

GETTLIN:

Any particular reason why?

WOODWARD:

You keep asking me the reasons why other people do things.

GETTLIN:

Well it made some --

WOODWARD:

I'm not very good, uh, well maybe he did tell me but I'm not, if you wanna ask him, his name is Roger Farquhar.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. I've talked to Roger Farquhar. And he, he said that um, that uh, he had a letter that was written for you, on your behalf, and that it was the letter and your eagerness and enthusiasm --

WOODWARD:

Letter from who?

GETTLIN:

From a guy in the Navy. A commanding officer of the Navy.

WOODWARD:

Who?

GETTLIN:

I don't, I don't know who.

WOODWARD:

I don't think that's correct.

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

I may have shown him my fitness --

GETTLIN:

Maybe not.

WOODWARD:

--for something that --

COLODNY:

He describes the letter as a glowing letter of recommendation from the, from an officer in the Pentagon. That was his description of what he said was the reason, one of the rea--, that plus what you may have said to him in the doorway about wanting the job so badly.

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

You remember that quote?

WOODWARD:

I don't, I don't think there was a letter.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Um, okay, uh, I think that's pretty much, there may be one or two more. Now, did you maintain contact with the Post while you were there? I mean, well, it was almost a year after that that you went to work for the Post.

WOODWARD:

That's correct.

GETTLIN:

Did they, was there an agreement that if you worked out at the Sentinel they'd hire you, or --?

WOODWARD:

No. There was no agreement. There was, you know, come back after you've learned journalism.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. So you did and did some good stories at the Sentinel and that was, they hired you.

WOODWARD:

They did.

GETTLIN:

Right. Okay. Um, when you went to the Post, what were you, you went on the metro staff and what you were a city star reporter?

WOODWARD:

Um-hmm.

GETTLIN:

Um, you went, and I think in early, in the spring of '72, Governor Wallace got shot and you did some stories on Wallace. Is that right?

WOODWARD:

Um-hmm.

GETTLIN:

Uh, was that part of your regular beat?

WOODWARD:

Huh-uhh.

GETTLIN:

How did, how'd you end up writing about Wallace?

WOODWARD:

(coughs) Well I, it was pretty, I was fascinated in who might have done this and I think I focused on the guy who uh --

GETTLIN:

Bremmer. --

WOODWARD:

Arthur Bremmer.

GETTLIN:

Right. Did, did you ever met Wallace or --

WOODWARD:

No.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Um, and then from there, you know, this began the popular histories between the stories about how you then moved on to Watergate. So, I guess I'll turn it over to Len to take it over from there. If you wanna move on.

COLODNY:

Yeah, I just have very little to ask, it won't be long. I just have some confusion. Or maybe you can clear up the confusion better than anyone else. Uh, I was trying to understand the agreement that you had with your source, not who the source is. I'm not asking who the source is and don't wanna get involved in, that's not what this book is about. And I'm not trying to find out who your source was, that --

WOODWARD:

(coughs)

COLODNY:

--game has been played so many times, you almost get tired of reading stories about who he is, and Dean's elaborate attempt to figure out exactly who the person is. My own interest is the agreement that you had with uh, with your source. And, according to All the President's Men, you said that you had, he said, you said you had promised him you would never identify him, or his position to anyone. And uh, further, you agreed never to quote the guy. Even as an anonymous source, and that the discussions would only confirm information that had been obtained elsewhere and uh, to answer perspectives. Is that, essentially --

WOODWARD:

Uh, uh, that's, that's in the book.

COLODNY:

I know. I'm asking you is that essentially the --

WOODWARD:

That's what the book says.

COLODNY:

You, you made the agreement, so I figured you might, and you wrote the book, so I assumed that that's a correct (pause) --

WOODWARD:

Go ahead. What's the question?

COLODNY:

Uh, what I don't understand, and maybe you can help me understand, well, what we --

WOODWARD:

Listen, you're welcome --

COLODNY:

Well, we've read it -- You know, two out of three isn't bad, then, right?

WOODWARD:

Until my career isn't to blame, you didn't even buy it.

COLODNY:

Well, I can't afford it.

GETTLIN:

Listen I've got a, I've got a four o'clock --

COLODNY:

Okay, um, as ever the always observant Woodward, right? Uh, in the, the story about the uh, in the November meeting that you had with your source, in which you di--

WOODWARD:

November when?

COLODNY:

1973. Which is probably based on this, the last meeting that took place and in which you said Throat's message was short and simple. One or more of the tapes contained deliberate erasures. You described the meeting as, as occurring uh, first week in uh, November --

GETTLIN:

--in, in fact, all, all we're trying to establish is that the, the relationship, as you wrote earlier in the book, about you would only confirm, didn't stay that way, it changed.

WOODWARD:

The book makes it clear --

COLODNY:

It evolved, it evolved. But there's no statement of the evolution. It just evolved.

WOODWARD:

Yeah, well, the, the --

COLODNY:

Yeah, well, I mean, I've read the book. There's no, there's no statement by you that, that somehow --

WOODWARD:

There, there's nothing inconsistent with that. It's, the facts are laid out as they occurred.

GETTLIN:

Well, let me --

WOODWARD:

Over time.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, um, as it evolved did, it never evolved into what uh, you took, uh, original information that he would give you, you would then use and --

WOODWARD:

Well I, I think the best --

COLODNY:

--quote him or --

WOODWARD:

--record is the book.

GETTLIN:

Okay.

COLODNY:

Okay, okay. Uh, in the article, that you wrote, at that time, uh, (paper shuffling), you had also evolved, and I assume that --

GETTLIN:

That's in November 8th, '73. - 40

COLODNY:

This is the, this is the article written as a result of that.

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

--that disclosure to you.

WOODWARD:

Is it --

COLODNY:

Is that--, if you wan--, if you wanna look at it?

WOODWARD:

All right.

COLODNY:

Fine with me. (pause)

WOODWARD:

And the question?

COLODNY:

The question is you look on the next page, you'll see underlined --

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

--it seems to me that if we have another evolution so tell me, but it's clear to me that that's who you're quoting, uh, as a White House source. There's no other White House source that's talking about tapes being erased.

WOODWARD:

I, I don't know.

GETTLIN:

Well, it's clearly Throat, because if you go back to your book, you mention at the end of the book that Throat said the very things which you had said he said in that source, so obviously --

WOODWARD:

Literally uh, quote, I mean you --

GETTLIN:

No. Well let me, let me help --

COLODNY:

Well I went back to, you said not, he didn't even wanna be anonymously quoted. Much less --

WOODWARD:

Aren't you saying did I quote --

COLODNY:

Yeah.

WOODWARD:

--him saying exactly --

GETTLIN:

Yeah.

WOODWARD:

-- what's here.

GETTLIN:

Well uh --

COLODNY:

You didn't use the word deliberate in the story but it's the own heart of the story, Bob, where you alluding to something other than just --

GETTLIN:

Yes.

COLODNY:

--an accident.

GETTLIN:

The story quoted, if you look at the --

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

GETTLIN:

--read those quotes there. The story quoted anonymously Deep Throat's remark that there were gaps of a suspicious nature, which quo--, quote, unquote, a suspicious nature, which quote, it leads someone to conclude that --

WOODWARD:

You, you, uh, you draw your conclusion. I'm not gonna draw it for you. And I, as I say, I'd have to sit down and look through this, it occurred some time ago.

COLODNY:

I understand. I, I, I think --

GETTLIN:

Well, no, I think it's--, all I'm saying is that obviously it ended up that you were quoting Deep Throat anonymously.

WOODWARD:

I don't know.

GETTLIN:

Well, turn, turn, to Chapter 17, right here, as you look at the, the bottom here, and what, what does it say? It says --

WOODWARD:

(coughs)

GETTLIN:

Quote, of a suspicious nature, which quote, could lead, and these are the exact quotes that are in the story. So it has to be Throat. There's enough --

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 3:

Excuse me. Could I speak with two counsels?

WOODWARD:

Yeah, that, that's uh, go, ask Elsa, she's upstairs.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 3:

Okay.

GETTLIN:

She'll take care of everything. (Background -- Elsa, there's a delivery for ??)

WOODWARD:

Yeah, looks, looks that way.

COLODNY:

Okay. So (paper shuffling), uh, well I'll --

GETTLIN:

Let's just pursue this, I mean is this news. I mean that, you were --,I've never heard anywhere on the record over the last seventeen years or so that you quoted Deep Throat anonymously. So, I find this --

WOODWARD:

The story quoted anonymously Deep Throat's remark that there were gaps. The new, it's stated right here in the book. (sound of glass clanking)

COLODNY:

Now, now wait --

WOODWARD:

(inaudible) (laughter)

COLODNY:

Now wait a second. Bob --

WOODWARD:

It says it right in the book.

COLODNY:

No, I understand that and I --

WOODWARD:

Okay. So I mean --

COLODNY:

--understand, and we have videotape of you and Carl when Dean broke his revelation. Uh --

WOODWARD:

I turned on --

GETTLIN:

Okay, hold up a second. (Shuffling) So I'll, you're right, it says --

WOODWARD:

It says it in the book.

GETTLIN:

Right. All I'm saying --

WOODWARD:

So you're saying is that news, and I, you know it, if you --

GETTLIN:

Obviously not, because you've said it in the book.

WOODWARD:

It said it in the book.

GETTLIN:

All I'm say--, the only report I've got --

WOODWARD:

I mean you guys, are, are, coming at me, you know, going through the book and then, lo and behold, you look at, in the book and it says exactly what you --

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

--say is news.

GETTLIN:

The only, the only point I'm trying to make is that there seems to be somewhat of a, a, two different stories in, in the book about what Deep Throat's relationship with you is all about. Not to make a big deal out of it, um,--

COLODNY:

I don't see where it means any more than you, can confirm Bob, yeah. I don't see any, uh, frankly I didn't know it was news. But that's me --

GETTLIN:

Okay, we have--

WOODWARD:

It says it right in the book.

GETTLIN:

Okay, I'll have, I don't have a problem with what you said is in the book. I agree with you that's what it said in the book and --

WOODWARD:

Okay.

GETTLIN:

--that's the way I accepted it. Uh, I would, I only wanted to point out to you that in that timeframe of Dean's so-called revelation, uh, Carl made the remark on Nightline, I guess it was, that once again, we, all that ever happened with Deep Throat was that, that he confirmed. That was his statement. That was, that's at a later date. So I'm only trying to --

WOODWARD:

Okay, but, but um, as you see from the story, we said we had five sources. Right?

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm.

COLODNY:

Um-hmm.

WOODWARD:

Now I would have to go back to notes and the book and --

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

--news stories and the sequence and so forth and I'm not sure I'm saying in there, that he was the first source at all. So --

GETTLIN:

I --

WOODWARD:

You, you lead me to a conclusion here.

COLODNY:

No, I think it stands, I think it stands on it's--, the other four sources don't tell you that there's anything related to a, a --

GETTLIN:

As a matter of fact, if you read the story, it says that the other four sources --

COLODNY:

Didn't know about any deliberate erasures.

GETTLIN:

--didn't look at the erasure in the same sinister way in which Throat looked at it. That they saw it as just a mishap, where as he saw it as deliberate, okay?

COLODNY:

Anyway, that's irrelevant. Uh, let's go to the, to what I think may be the evolution. Maybe I can remem--

WOODWARD:

And what is the record established on the tape erasure?

GETTLIN:

Regarding what?

WOODWARD:

After that? After that. I mean what do we know about the tape erasure?

COLODNY:

What do we know about it? We know that uh, we uh, we know what, that the President would learn about it a week after you learned about it. Uh, we know who was sitting there when they heard the eighteen minute gap. We knew when they found the five minute gap. We went through all the things that you had --

WOODWARD:

And, and the court pretty much concluded that it was deliberate. Or did it not?

COLODNY:

Well I, I've, I don't think --

WOODWARD:

I just said --

COLODNY:

--anybody, Bob, I don't think anybody's questioning whether it was deliberate or not.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, we agree.

COLODNY:

In fact I, in fact I, I believe strongly it was deliberate. Exactly who may or may not have erased that tape is another--

WOODWARD:

Okay. Okay.

COLODNY:

--story for another time.

WOODWARD:

Right.

COLODNY:

Uh --

WOODWARD:

(coughs)

COLODNY:

--the other sto--, the other meeting that interested me was the May 16th meeting. Which seems to have --

WOODWARD:

May, Saturday, '73.

GETTLIN:

'73. May 16th.

COLODNY:

'73, I'm sorry --

WOODWARD:

Okay.

COLODNY:

--it's my fault. I didn't put the date--

GETTLIN:

May '7 --

WOODWARD:

There was no Deep Throat.

COLODNY:

Well, that's okay. Anyway uh, Haig and friends had just ascended to the White House. Ehrlichman and Haldeman and friends had dis-- disappeared from the White House. You say, uh, essentially it was a conversation because you knew that your source didn't really have much love for Haldeman and Ehrlichman and they wouldn't, would not of been too unhappy to pursue Haldeman and Ehrlichman depart the scene. And then that's the, the scene that, where you come back, and there's music playing and you type out what is, what it was that was said. It seems to me that's the first time that if it, there's been an evolution, he's now telling you in great detail, again, not a confirmation but this litany of, uh, information.

WOODWARD:

(coughs)

COLODNY:

Uh, would that seem like a likely evolution point to you of, uh --

WOODWARD:

Well, I,--

COLODNY:

I meant --

WOODWARD:

--went through many evolution points and I think there, you know, they speak for themselves in the book.

COLODNY:

Is it by, can I take if from the book and from having read all your stories on Watergate that most of what he told you, you didn't really go after. You didn't follow up on the, uh, let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. Uh, let's take the one down at the bottom where I put, says CIA?

WOODWARD:

Uh-huh.

COLODNY:

He's telling you that uh, Helms and Walters and so on, and he's referring to the what would come out on the "smoking gun" tape as being Nixon using Helms and Waters, uh, Walters to block the FBI investigation. That will be what he's referring to, and what he was looking at. I don't mean your source, but that, what was going on in the White House at that time --

WOODWARD:

Um-hmm.

COLODNY:

--was, was, General Walters' memcons --

WOODWARD:

Right.

COLODNY:

--of meetings that, that he had with John Dean and, and particularly the one that he had that day the 23rd. Uh--

WOODWARD:

(coughs)

COLODNY:

--went off to the FBI. And I'm asking you, did you, were you able to verify that, or the reason you didn't write the story was you didn't verify it. Or you were unable to, to get that information which we now know, in retrospect.

WOODWARD:

Yeah. Um, the, the source Deep Throat has a, has a good record uh, on many things, and then some of the things he said --

COLODNY:

Were wrong.

WOODWARD:

--turned up, were wrong. So, um, or were never confirmed, I would --

COLODNY:

That's why I asked you whether it was something that you had really pushed hard to get --

WOODWARD:

Look I, listen, this, this was a time when so many things were going on. We were writing so many stories. I, I, you know, your specific question about Walters and Helms, um, this came out maybe a couple of weeks later. Wasn't there a May 30th statement that Nixon issued, talked about this?

COLODNY:

He issued a statement --

WOODWARD:

What was that?

COLODNY:

Uh, he issued a statement which was a leg--, which he dumped a whole lot of things on the table, as, he wanted to clear in the, Buzhardt, as you described him in the book, Buzhardt and Haig were, were pushing him, uh, to get everything on the table a la, take the, the rap and get it over with and put it behind you. The only thing that he held back on in that statement, was the Moorer-Radford story. The Moorer-Radford story essentially was the biggest secret that the Nixon Administration had. As far as they were concerned. Every time that thing started to bounce out the door, there was somebody trying to push it back in the door.

WOODWARD:

I don't agree it was the biggest secret they had.

COLODNY:

Well I'm telling you that's what they said. And whether they --

WOODWARD:

Well--

COLODNY:

--whether it's the biggest secret they had or not the biggest secret they had --

WOODWARD:

It came out in the, The Empire Didn't Fall.

COLODNY:

It was never, it came out in a very uh, calculated way.

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

Uh, nobody ever confirmed it. The Senate committee could never say for sure, and didn't say for sure, many, many claimed that they couldn't determine (sniffs) uh, the Watergate committee at the very same time that the Armed Services committee was meeting, uh, was holding their own secret hearings on Moorer-Radford.

WOODWARD:

Let's go. We've got half hour.

COLODNY:

That's all right. I'm, whatever it is, it is. Anyway, uh, I felt that from reading the book, this essentially was where things seem to turn as to whether you brought him information or not. And that there was very significant information. While some of what is in here is wrong, a good deal of what in here is, is true. The Huston plan, for example, which is going to come out very shortly. The wiretaps. And this is all in this, and Sy's gonna write more of it at that point then you're gonna write. I think that's a fair statement.

WOODWARD:

Abo--, about what?

COLODNY:

Well, you certainly, the wiretaps story. And --

WOODWARD:

The Kissinger wiretaps story?

COLODNY:

Um-hmm. (Shuffling of papers)

WOODWARD:

Well, as I describe in the book, uh, in, in some detail, I got that story first and wanted to run it and Kissinger called Bradlee and so forth and got us to hold it for a day and Sy beat us on it, by, by a day.

COLODNY:

No I'm, I'm not quibbling it.

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

I'm just trying --

WOODWARD:

To say it.

COLODNY:

--to, to understand that here's a, a terrific list of information and uh, in the end it's gonna be, it's gonna be the information that does the President in. It's gonna come out in a different way, but it's gonna be the information that, uh, does him in. That's really all I have on the, uh, on, uh, on that. The only other thing that uh --

GETTLIN:

I have a couple more things I wanna --

WOODWARD:

Let me just go, go through one of your assertions which I want to um, (pause) I'd like to go on record on where you alleged that you learned that leaks to the Washington Post, Woodward um, himself a former Navy officer, with ties to Haig and other military men, were motivated, motivated by this same vehement opposition to the Nixon-Kissinger alliance. Now, what the hell are my comments to Haig?

GETTLIN:

Well you mentioned to me that (coughs) and that's ??, okay, when is the first time?

WOODWARD:

As, as I said to you on the phone, Bob, and I you know, I just, eh, you, you, this is gonna be one of these things like uh, (sniffs) the uh, famous Hougan book or whatever it is that will disappear down the tubes unless you base it on a, a certain level of reality. I never met or talked to Haig until sometime in the spring of '73.

GETTLIN:

Do you 'member the circumstances around which you --

WOODWARD:

I don't. I don't.

GETTLIN:

Was he Chief of Staff at that point?

WOODWARD:

Don't know.

GETTLIN:

Uh, so you don't remember the reason --

WOODWARD:

So, the idea, and as you well know, the main stories that Carl and I did on Watergate --

GETTLIN:

Yeah.

WOODWARD:

--were before that period.

GETTLIN:

Before, sure, certainly.

WOODWARD:

Okay.

GETTLIN:

Certainly.

WOODWARD:

So, you know the idea that I had a tie to him is false.

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

The idea, but, but the important notion that you, you are saying here is that somehow I was his instrument or cat's paw. What the hell is that based on?

COLODNY:

Well it's (laughs), you wanna take, take care of that or what?

WOODWARD:

Why don't you take care of it? Well, how am I Haig's --

COLODNY:

We're not, and first of all I don't think it says you're Haig's cat's paw there. If it does I will be very surprised if it uses the word Haig's cat's paw.

WOODWARD:

No, we learned that in Watergate Woodward became the cat's paw for these military men, including Haig who sought to undermine the President.

COLODNY:

Well what we're saying Bob is you had a source. I, again I'm not asking who the source is. It's, it's irrelevant --

GETTLIN:

Unless you wanna tell us, which I'm sure --

COLODNY:

I'm sure that, that, that little possibility isn't gonna happen so let's, let's go from there. We believe that whoever that source was, or whoever sent that source out, whatever the motivation was, and there was motivation, in our judgement, based on the evidence that we concluded. Whoever was leaking that information based on, we know, knowing who had access to the information, that's important because if you don't have access to it you can't leak it. You have know the information before you do it. I don't know whether you knew what your source was doing. I don't know whether you understood the motivation of the people. You may not have.

WOODWARD:

Well --

COLODNY:

It, it doesn't, you know, the whole point to this is that many times in government, and I know in government, you will send a third party to leak so it doesn't get traced back to you. So I have no idea what you knew or didn't know about the motivation from--

WOODWARD:

But what's your, con--, conclusion?

COLODNY:

That in one form or another, yo--, the Post and you were being used by these people to get Richard Nixon.

GETTLIN:

Let me, let me ask this --

WOODWARD:

That, that in--, to what end? The illegal, I'd rather massive now documented scale --

COLODNY:

Um-hmm.

WOODWARD:

--and I, I tell you because I know who it is and I know how the relationship evolved--

COLODNY:

Um-hmm.

WOODWARD:

--and you, you're --

COLODNY:

Well let me --

WOODWARD:

--dead ass wrong --

COLODNY:

Okay, well let, let --

WOODWARD:

--but you go ahead. And, what you're doing is say, we don't know who it is but we're gonna speculate on his motives.

COLODNY:

We'll, we'll --

WOODWARD:

Contrary to the record, not only did Carl and I put out at the time --

COLODNY:

Yeah.

WOODWARD:

But to, th--, this is a record that included the senior people at the Post. They were involved in this --

GETTLIN:

All right.

WOODWARD:

--in these discussions --

GETTLIN:

All right.

WOODWARD:

--in this analysis of --

GETTLIN:

Well, let me, let me back up, in order to understand --

WOODWARD:

--but you, you go ahead.

GETTLIN:

In order to understand this whole thing, without asking you who this gentleman is --

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

GETTLIN:

--because uh, that's, you know, we're not gonna get anywhere on that. The question really is, one that needs to be asked, is here you were a guy who was what, how old were you then? 27 or 28? A reporter for what, a year and nine months? You'd been working at the Sentinel for a year. You'd been at the Post for nine months. You'd been on the DC metro staff, not covering the White House as far as I know. And here's a young guy, uh, who has this source, or sources, uh, in a very, very sensitive high positions within the administration. Clearly not a, a uh, a normal situation. We both know these reporters that, and you've dealt with metro reporters, you were an enem- -, they usually don't have sources in the inner sanctum of the White House with such sensitive information. The question has to be asked. Why did Deep Throat or whoever this person or persons were, pick you as someone, or trust you enough to, to give you this information. You mention in your book that he was a friend from way back.

WOODWARD:

But, see, you --

GETTLIN:

Uh --

WOODWARD:

--you were, you were, uh, just --

GETTLIN:

Well, maybe you can answer that question. I don't know. Can you answer that question why?

WOODWARD:

I think in, in part, and I think you are again walking away and I, I, continually wanna drive you back to the record.

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm.

WOODWARD:

The record in this book. The record of the published story. The record of Watergate and so forth, establishes that Deep Throat was one of many sources, the process of piecing together. A little bit here --

GETTLIN:

I understand that.

WOODWARD:

--a confirmation here --

GETTLIN:

I understand.

WOODWARD:

--a check here. Hugh Sloan. Or a secretary, it, so it, it is not a situation where there's one person coming in, or even half a dozen--, no wait just a sec, this is very important. 'Cause I lived it real time --

GETTLIN:

I understand. I understand.

WOODWARD:

-- and the way you, when you look at the sequence of something, you get a secretary, you get a source over here, you get Deep Throat and so forth and you start writing these stories, uh, a piece at a time, right? It's not somebody coming in.

GETTLIN:

But, nonetheless --

WOODWARD:

Daniel Ellsberg with a grocery cart of documents and saying and--

GETTLIN:

I understand Bob, --

WOODWARD:

But, but, but --

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

-- do you understand?

GETTLIN:

Yes --

WOODWARD:

Okay.

GETTLIN:

--well, let me ask the question again.

WOODWARD:

Sure.

GETTLIN:

Because your own book clearly elevates Deep Throat to a, a very important level.

WOODWARD:

One of?

GETTLIN:

Well, I of, your modesty is compelling but --

WOODWARD:

It, it, it, it, it, it, no but my modesty is genuine. It is, it is uh, wrapped in a mystery to this day --

GETTLIN:

Right.

WOODWARD:

-- and so it tends to attract some attention but look at the movie, look at the book and you'll see it's an element, no question about it.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, but can you --

WOODWARD:

But it is uh, a lot of knocking on doors, piecing together all kinds of records --

GETTLIN:

Give, I'll even accept --

WOODWARD:

-- and dates and documents.

GETTLIN:

I'll even accept that. But even so --

WOODWARD:

(coughs)

GETTLIN:

Let's say he was one of many. Can you still tell me why this one person --

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

GETTLIN:

--this one of many, who clearly was in a position to know some very important things hidden in the highest regions of the Nixon administration, would talk to you, again, the young reporter, you'd been a metro reporter, been a year and a half, uh, you know, so wh--why you?

WOODWARD:

Well, because maybe I did the work and formed the relationship.

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm. Now the book says the relationship went way back. As an old friend, um --

WOODWARD:

I'll repeat, it says what it says.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. Well it --

WOODWARD:

You've a little bit mis-characterized it.

GETTLIN:

Well, I'm sorry but I, I mean I think, I mean I'll thumb through the book, but --

WOODWARD:

Look, look, look, look --

GETTLIN:

--okay it says, there is a passage in there, and I can't quote it verbatim, which says that you sat down and had meetings with him. You talked about power and government. I mean it wasn't a guy that, that was just a casual acquaintance. Now - -

WOODWARD:

The, the record speaks for itself.

GETTLIN:

Let me ask you a direct question.

WOODWARD:

Sure.

GETTLIN:

Did you meet this gentleman before you became a reporter?

WOODWARD:

I'm just not gonna get into anything that's not in the book.

COLODNY:

Bob, can I point out something?

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

And I hope --

WOODWARD:

Sure.

COLODNY:

--don't, again, don't, it's not, not personal, it's just to say to you that you had a piece of this story. No question about it. You had an important piece of this story, and your sources had an important piece of this story. What we've learned in doing the book, was there was a whole other story going on. There was a cover up going on that your source did not know about. Did not know about the payoffs immediately. Uh, there's a whole line of things that are happening, which we're gonna learn as Watergate breaks, as Sirica pushes on the defendants, and I think you'd agree that the kinds of information you got, based on what you wrote, and I'm gonna take it strictly by having read your newspaper stories and read your book --

WOODWARD:

(coughs)

COLODNY:

--that you didn't have uh, John Dean and those people out there paying Hunt and Bittman as early as June and July and August, or hell, you'd of written it. I mean, that just seems obvious to me. So there's more than one thing happening here.

WOODWARD:

Oh, well there --

COLODNY:

And, and --

WOODWARD:

--but there are all kinds of things happening.

COLODNY:

That's right.

WOODWARD:

And, and you, you've gotta understand my position. I welcome, um, uh, sophisticated and, and uh, fact-oriented Watergate revisionism, if you will. But you have to, I urge you, you don't have to. I urge you to look at the facts. And look at it in a, in, as you can detect, I deeply resent the idea that I'm somebody's cat's paw, or because you have a totally erroneous story that I briefed somebody in the Pentagon or did something at some certain time. This is a tie and a connection and that there's this coup going on. I mean I, I tell you, I have examined motives, uh, documents, records, personalities in a way uh, and I don't see any evidence of it. Now --

GETTLIN:

What was Deep Throat's motive?

WOODWARD:

What? Go to the book.

COLODNY:

Well --

WOODWARD:

It, it's, it's whether --

GETTLIN:

Oh, I know. I'm not tr--, I don't wanna argue with you. All I'm saying is --

COLODNY:

But it may well turn out --

WOODWARD:

I just think that your, your, your thesis here --

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm.

WOODWARD:

--is, I mean I, I looked uh, with some interest in reading it, but --

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm.

WOODWARD:

--as I say it'll, if you haven't got, you, you, you're basing it on this kind of erroneous information leading to a tie, leading to a supposition and reevaluation of somebody's motives that you don't know --

COLODNY:

Bob --

WOODWARD:

--to see what you can come up with.

COLODNY:

Bob, let me say this to you. And as a reporter you do the same thing. You go out, if it turns out that you are right, 'cause I'm gonna do what you asked us to do. You wanted us to read your stories, I've spent days reading your stories. There's any, nothing you could ask me that I wouldn't do.

WOODWARD:

Okay.

COLODNY:

It turns out you're not a cat's paw, we'll strike cat's paw and we'll tell the story without cat's paw in there. But the fact of the matter is, that there's a good deal of Watergate, and I don't mean Watergate per se, break-ins and something, there's a lot more going on here. I've been in politics a long time, Bob. A long time. Things don't happen for no reason at all. Presidents don't resign over break-ins. Uh, I read your review of Liddy's book. Said something very interesting in that review, you, in fact you liked the book.

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

You thought it was an honest book. And --

WOODWARD:

I said he's, here's somebody who's giving us some deep facts.

COLODNY:

Right. And you, and you said when you came across the fact that the CIA had prepared the GEMSTONE but, hey wait a minute, somebody's lying here. Well, we're convinced somebody was lying, that there's a great deal of perjured testimony both in the Watergate committee and not by the Nixon people.

WOODWARD:

(coughs)

COLODNY:

And in the trials.

WOODWARD:

By who?

COLODNY:

Uh, read the book. But the fact, well, the fact of the matter, well, you've got me reading your book, and I'll have you read our book. The fact of the matter is, that people tell you something and you go back to the source and then you weigh their evidence. You try to see can they corroborate what they told you. Did they have another source like you said you used two sources, in many instances we're using three, four and five sources to, to confirm what the first source told us. So we're not just sitting here just pulling stuff out of thin air. I don't believe in it and I don't believe it would be fair. But I do believe we know one hell of a lot more today about this, the big picture then the smaller picture. And your source knew a piece of the puzzle. But only knew a piece of the puzzle.

GETTLIN:

Okay.

COLODNY:

Yep.

GETTLIN:

Um, just to close out this thing, why, I asked you about (coughs) why you? I may just read from the book very quickly and then we'll move on as we get, it's getting late. Uh, it's talking about, uh, one of your garage meetings, uh, Deep Throat was already there smoking. He was glad to see Woodward, shook his hand. Woodward told him that he investigated health, etc. His friendship, meaning Woodward's with Deep Throat was genuine, not cultivated. Long before Watergate they had spent many evenings talking about Washington, the government power. And then it goes on, evenings such as those Deep Throat talked about how politics can infiltrate every corner of government, [INAUDIBLE] mentality. Um, so he was, Woodward considered him a wise teacher. Now, to me, that, that paints a picture of a guy who, long before Watergate, a guy who wasn't cultivated while you were working the story, but you knew before that, when you were a metro reporter, or perhaps even earlier. So that's why I asked you why you and when you came to know this gentleman. I, I think for history, Deep Throat is a very important historical figure. Whether you think it's been inflated in popular culture or not. The fact remains that he, to this day, people consider him to be, uh, one of the key sources, you know, of the last power of many years. And uh, I think we owe it to our readers and to the historical record to ask you that question.

WOODWARD:

What question? What's the question?

GETTLIN:

Again, why you? And how did you get to cultivate a guy be--, long before Watergate, when you were a metro reporter? I just lay that out again. Now you can either answer it or not answer it.

WOODWARD:

Well, I'm gonna let the record speak.

GETTLIN:

Okay. That's fine.

WOODWARD:

It's my job as a --

COLODNY:

Can I, uh, show you one last story you wrote? Uh, take a look at it. (paper shuffling) Uh, it's October 10th of '73. You recall the story?

WOODWARD:

I do.

COLODNY:

Uh, does that indicate that you were on to Moorer-Radford as early as October of '73? To you, does that indicate?

WOODWARD:

(pause) Well, um, it was in the context, as the story demonstrates, of the uh, the leak to Jack Anderson on the India-Pakistanian War.

COLODNY:

Right.

GETTLIN:

(coughs)

WOODWARD:

I didn't connect it to the, um, what later I guess became, if the sequence is right, the uh, Moorer-Radford thing which came out when?

COLODNY:

January, in other words, you're saying at this point you don't know about Moorer-Radford?

WOODWARD:

I, I, this is Radford I think, isn't it?

COLODNY:

Well I --

WOODWARD:

Did I name him here?

COLODNY:

--you, no, I don't think you named him, but I --

WOODWARD:

I'm not sure I knew his name, um, but it's possible I did, yeah. But this was all in the context, this is the day Agnew resigned, by the way.

COLODNY:

Um-hmm.

WOODWARD:

October 10th, that's the day Agnew resigned.

GETTLIN:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

That's what happens when we read your articles. We get to read everybody else's articles at the same time.

WOODWARD:

Yeah. And he was in the context of the Kissinger taps and that there was something else, where they were doing taps.

COLODNY:

Let me uh, the last thing I wanna go over with you--

GETTLIN:

I wanna talk, I wanna deal with Haig real quickly. You wanna deal with that first or you want me to --

COLODNY:

Yeah, I just wanted, I just wanna ask --

WOODWARD:

Three more minutes.

COLODNY:

Bob --

GETTLIN:

(laughs)

COLODNY:

You've been so generous. I can't, I'm just choked up over it. But--

WOODWARD:

By the way, I have a question for you. Do you still call people up on the telephone and secretly tape the whole --

COLODNY:

Oh, come on Bob, what's the--

WOODWARD:

--phone conversations?

COLODNY:

You wanna go back to that, you --

WOODWARD:

Do you? Fair question.

COLODNY:

Is it a fair question?

WOODWARD:

Yes. Is, I understand from you and a number of other people that you secretly taped a conversation you and I had.

COLODNY:

I don't think we wanna go into that.

WOODWARD:

(inaudible)

COLODNY:

And I don't think you wanna go into that, but let's --

WOODWARD:

Why don't I wanna go into it?

COLODNY:

Because I, first of all I don't see the point, and second --

WOODWARD:

What is supposed to ask you --

COLODNY:

--and second, and second of all, you know, I --

GETTLIN:

You, there's a tape of it. There's no holding --

WOODWARD:

And you know --

COLODNY:

You want, you want, you wanna transcript, you can have the transcript. Uh, and I have no problem sending it to you.

WOODWARD:

Okay.

COLODNY:

Absolutely not.

GETTLIN:

We're not interested --

WOODWARD:

I just, I'm asking whether your ethics and honor --

GETTLIN:

Yeah.

WOODWARD:

--extend to that point that you still do that.

COLODNY:

That I still do what?

WOODWARD:

Secretly tape people on the telephone.

GETTLIN:

We're not, we're not --

COLODNY:

Bob --

GETTLIN:

We're talking to people --

WOODWARD:

Fair question.

COLODNY:

Is it a fair question?

WOODWARD:

Yes.

COLODNY:

Not the way you characterized it, no.

WOODWARD:

It isn't. Okay, let me put it, do you still secretly tape people on the telephone?

COLODNY:

I nev--, no I don't secretly, if that's your word, I don't --

WOODWARD:

Without their knowledge.

COLODNY:

Well, I said I'll send you the transcript. I don't fin--, I, I, question--

WOODWARD:

When you taped me, did I know you were doing it?

GETTLIN:

When was that, in 1980?

WOODWARD:

Whatever it was, did I know?

COLODNY:

Did you know? Bob, I don't know, I don't --

WOODWARD:

Did you tell me?

COLODNY:

Did I tell you?

WOODWARD:

You did not.

COLODNY:

Bob, I don't, I don't think that's, Bob, I don't think it's an issue, but you're free to, you know.

WOODWARD:

It is an issue. It's, it's --

COLODNY:

You wanna --

WOODWARD:

Issue of somebody's ethics --

GETTLIN:

Have we not been straight --

WOODWARD:

And you can understand my --

COLODNY:

Whatever, I mean --

WOODWARD:

--discomfort with that.

GETTLIN:

If you feel we've not been straight with you up 'til now, regarding this book, 'cause we're not writing about the Montgomery County stuff. If we were writing about it, fine. If you feel that we haven't been straight with you up until now on the book we're writing, please say so, because I think we've been open --

WOODWARD:

No, but people have a track record and if somebody secretly taped your phone conversation you would be (inaudible)

GETTLIN:

Well --

WOODWARD:

Right? Would you not?

GETTLIN:

I may or may not. I don't know, I mean, at your uncom--, I sense your uncomfortable being --

WOODWARD:

I just, no, no, I just, listen, you approached me in a frontal way, I'm accepting you at face value.

GETTLIN:

Yeah.

WOODWARD:

As, as Norman Mailer says, in America everyone gets a second chance.

COLODNY:

Thank you. Thank you. Um --

GETTLIN:

Um--, go ahead.

COLODNY:

I wanna ask you about the memo, uh, the CIA memo, uh, in the (paper shuffling) Baker addendum to the Watergate report.

WOODWARD:

(coughs) Yes.

COLODNY:

We've also rec--, I didn't bring the, the full memorandum with Coskey memo --

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

-- and all that.

WOODWARD:

Right.

COLODNY:

Do you know what he's referring to?

WOODWARD:

Well, you know, this has come up before and I talked to Bennett about it and, uh, talked to Howard Baker about it and so forth, and, uh, (pause) it's not a quote and it is not uh - -

GETTLIN:

Is it true or untrue?

WOODWARD:

He was never feeding me stories. He answered questions a couple of times about Hunt. At a very early stage and uh, (pause) you know, answered in a direct way. So I, you know --

GETTLIN:

So it did stop (inaudible)

WOODWARD:

--he's the one that told me that he had worked for the CIA.

GETTLIN:

Then that --

COLODNY:

That who had worked for the CIA?

GETTLIN:

That Bennett.

WOODWARD:

Bennett told me that Hunt had worked for the CIA.

GETTLIN:

Bennett didn't tell you that he had any relationship with the CIA, did he? At that time?

WOODWARD:

Hell, no. No. No.

COLODNY:

As you, as you know, or might, I assume you know. Chuck Colson told me that Buzhardt had handed him a file, Central Intelligence Agency file, went through the materials that were in there. They were articles by you and the memo which indicated, and you were the only reporter that was in that file. I wondered if you were aware of that file and how that thing came to be?

WOODWARD:

A file of my articles?

COLODNY:

No, it was a CIA file that had a number of other things that Buzhardt handed to Colson --

WOODWARD:

What were the number of other things?

COLODNY:

Uh, I, I can't recall them off the top of my head. There was, it was a compendium of, of stuff that Colson had in the, uh, in the file, and I mean, I don't frankly understand why Buzhardt would hand him a CIA file at that point in time. It was in April or May of uh, '73. Something like that. Uh, or '74. Uh, but anyway, uh, he described to me the articles that were allegedly the ones they fed to you. And I wondered if you had any familiarity with that --

WOODWARD:

You read the articles that I, you read all the articles --

COLODNY:

I'm telling you I --

WOODWARD:

We wrote about Watergate?

GETTLIN:

Yes.

COLODNY:

Yes.

WOODWARD:

Do you see that Bennett was feeding me stories?

COLODNY:

It seemed to me from what I re--, I read and you correct --

WOODWARD:

(yells to someone else) Hey, Hi, you all set, on that?

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 3:

Yeah.

WOODWARD:

What'd you do?

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 3:

(inaudible)

WOODWARD:

Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 3:

Okay. Goodbye now.

COLODNY:

You correct me if I'm wrong on it. I read, it's particularly the, the articles immediately after the break-in.

WOODWARD:

Were you reading it personally?

COLODNY:

Where there were, where there were profiles of the guys and off, and the word CIA kept popping up, but, but basically in a pro forma way. There was no attempt by anybody to link the Central Intelligence Agency to the, to the break-in. It was just --

GETTLIN:

Sort of followed --

COLODNY:

--state--, it was a statement of fact. That --

WOODWARD:

--we were following, that's (inaudible)

COLODNY:

You were or weren't?

WOODWARD:

Were.

COLODNY:

You were followed --

GETTLIN:

Uh, what direct, the CIA?

WOODWARD:

Sure.

GETTLIN:

I think if you go back and look at your articles, you'll find that over the course of that summer of '72, the only thread that's followed is the one that comes up in the, in the initial arraignment and uh, the fact that, you know, these guys had some CIA ties. But beyond that, there's nothing.

WOODWARD:

Well, but you're, see, that's where you, your reading is inadequate. The story about Howard Hunt, uh, his name being in the address books --

GETTLIN:

Well I --

WOODWARD:

--of the burglars, which Jane Buzinsky and I broached.

GETTLIN:

Well, sure.

WOODWARD:

Hunt, White House consultant, former CIA agent, uh, really brought the CIA in, in a monumental way.

GETTLIN:

Well did it?

WOODWARD:

Sure.

GETTLIN:

I mean what role did the CIA play in the, in the rest of the Watergate stories it was --

WOODWARD:

Well I don't --

COLODNY:

It isn't even in your book.

GETTLIN:

I mean what happens is --

WOODWARD:

Well it is, no it's not in --

GETTLIN:

Sure.

COLODNY:

No, I, I, I'm not talking --

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

What, what you just said is in the book.

GETTLIN:

Right.

COLODNY:

What, what you did was in the book, but there doesn't, there's no story that says, these guys were still on the CIA payroll, and in some instances they were. Uh, --

WOODWARD:

That is --

COLODNY:

I'm now getting to what Liddy said about the help that he was getting from the Central Intelligence --

WOODWARD:

Listen, I, the, the role of the CIA in Watergate, as I said in that, Liddy review --

GETTLIN:

Yeah.

WOODWARD:

Is something that has never been fully answered --

GETTLIN:

Right.

WOODWARD:

--to my satisfaction. I've always been on record on that.

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

But you know, you get caught in a, in a crossfire here on, you're too hard on the CIA, you're too easy on the CIA. I'm neither hard nor easy on the CIA. I'm trying to deal with the facts.

COLODNY:

I just got --

WOODWARD:

And if you look at the record, the, from the first story of McCord being former CIA guy, that I overheard in the arraignment, he put --

GETTLIN:

And you said, who wrote you in all that?

WOODWARD:

We put more on the record about the CIA role and connections and all of this than anybody.

COLODNY:

Well I'm not quarreling with, with that, I think that, well, all I'm saying to you is that in reading those first stories, the thing that went through my mind was, hey, Nixon's using the CIA (pause) for political purposes. That was the impression you get from reading these great news stories --

GETTLIN:

Of the first week where the CIA kind of drops out of the picture after that.

COLODNY:

Very little mention of the CIA after July.

GETTLIN:

Really it's after June.

COLODNY:

After June.

GETTLIN:

But, let me, let's so um, then it seems, like you met with Bennett but he wasn't feeding you stories.

WOODWARD:

I think we just talked on the phone.

COLODNY:

So he's wrong in that, that memo's wrong. That's, that's the bottom line.

WOODWARD:

That he was feeding me stories?

COLODNY:

That, that memo is, is incorrect.

WOODWARD:

I mean what is, you know, you talk to somebody --

COLODNY:

I know.

WOODWARD:

--and they think they're feeding you a story.

COLODNY:

But the implication is --

WOODWARD:

What they're doing is answering questions.

COLODNY:

But the implication is that you were breaking one, well, keeping it away from him, from the agency.

WOODWARD:

Look, we wrote about his company.

COLODNY:

I'm not, I'm not quarrelling with what you're, what you're saying, I'm just --

GETTLIN:

Let me move on real quickly 'cause we gotta wrap this up. On the Haig thing, 'cause that was a quote that you and I discussed. You said you first met him in some time in early '73, but you don't really remember when you met him and uh, you certainly never met him while you were, I mean before that point, is that correct?

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 3:

Excuse me. But I think the battery's going on this.

WOODWARD:

Is it?

GETTLIN:

Do you need a battery?

WOODWARD:

Yeah, yeah, that's okay.

GETTLIN:

Okay?

WOODWARD:

Well, look, we're almost done.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, um, how often did you, what, what was your relationship with Haig after that quote, would you say?

WOODWARD:

Oh boy, uh, I mean that's uh, (pause) that I'm not gonna go into. Uh --

GETTLIN:

Because?

WOODWARD:

Well, because it's complicated, uh, let me just point one instance in All The President's Men, where he is, he costs Catherine Graham --

GETTLIN:

Right.

WOODWARD:

Uh, and he criticizes, he was a critic of lots of what we were doing during this period, of which you're well aware.

GETTLIN:

I understand, but I'm just asking you, what your relationship was with him, after that.

WOODWARD:

I just gotta, I'm gonna --

GETTLIN:

Can you, can you answer it, me, why you wrote this?

WOODWARD:

Well, because it's true. That in my evaluation --

GETTLIN:

That his tapes shouldn't be subpoenead. That was written when he was up for Secretary of State and you wrote an ar--, you wrote that op-ed piece, urging that the Senate should not subpoena the tapes of Haig which --

WOODWARD:

(coughs)

GETTLIN:

--I mean I don't know how many other times you've written about tapes shouldn't be subpoenead.

WOODWARD:

(coughing attack)

GETTLIN:

I mean you've been more --

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

GETTLIN:

--on the other side, I guess, than, than that. And I find that a very interesting piece that you wrote. Can you tell me why you wrote it?

WOODWARD:

Again, it speaks for itself.

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

That, that was my conclusion. I think the argument is well stated.