Interview with Bob Woodward
March 6, 1989
Robert Gettlin and Len Colodny

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GETTLIN:

Ah, I'd mentioned to you that we — ah, what we wanted to talk about your military background and so forth, um, actually I wanted to start with — a little bit before that with Yale and — and o— NO, NROTC and so forth, so let me just ask you some questions about that . . .

WOODWARD:

Okay, what is — is the book here as you describe it, because over the years I've received various accounts of what this book was, it first started out as a book on Liquorgate, right?

COLODNY:

It had its metamorphosis that's, ah, you know, it went through, ah, a number of metamorphoses and I think part of that was we were following a trail then said, wait a minute if you're not right about this or you don't think this is the way it is, ah, the facts should determine what the book says and not us determining what the book said.

WOODWARD:

But it started out as a book on Liquorgate, right?

COLODNY:

I [may?] ..

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE]

COLODNY:

Yeah, I think — I think it would be — i— it's only fair to say look, we were looking at what you were doing and trying to understand what happened in that story as an original thing.

WOODWARD:

If that had evolved into

COLODNY:

[INAUDIBLE]

WOODWARD:

. . . and you dropped that, and then it evolved into a — a biography of me . . .

COLODNY:

No, it never was a biography . . .

WOODWARD:

The— this is what people reported to me that you contacted [NOISE ON TAPES DISTORTS CONVERSATION]

COLODNY:

No, I think that — that to be fair about it and, ah, Bob is [NOISE DISTORTION]. . and I think since the —the genesis is the relationship that he had that went way back, ah, I think what happened was we were looking at you and then we found a much larger story going on and unfortunately the title didn't reflect, the working title didn't reflect the reality and when we finally got to the point, last year, where we went to a— to hire an agent . . .

WOODWARD:

What was the working title at that point?

COLODNY:

It was Woodward was Watergate and if you read that, the title and then read the books you would say, well, wait a minute what are you talking about he's not — he's not the central character in the book, why did you title the book that, ah, well, it was a working title and you've used working titles before, ah, if the, ah, the story didn't evolve that way, ah, I like to think of the story this way, Bob, ah, the Nixon administration is what this story's about, it's a story about an administration that soared, that took off and soared and in the end crashed. You reported the crash and that part of it is — is clear in the book and there's no misunderstanding, but what we tried to look at was all the other things that were going on, ah, prior to that who Ni— you know, what was really happening here, what kind of a president was Richard Nixon and what kind of enemies did he develop, and how did this crash happen, and we think that that's what the book's about and it more accurately reflects your role, ah, as a reporter of — of the crash and what was that crash all about and who were his enemies and who really wanted to do Richard Nixon in, the pub— perception of — ah, Richard Nixon the, ah, the anti-communist, the Democrats hate him, the liberals hate him, that kind — so really that's what you have, ah, an administration that soars to the greatest heights in foreign policy, changes the world in — in many ways and then crashes. Why did it crash and what was going on in those early years that would've led to that kind of a crash. So I think that's an accurate description of what this book is today and you're correct in saying, yes, that's the way it started, but we followed the facts and let the facts determine what the story was . . .

WOODWARD:

We— we will deal with facts this morning. Go ahead.

GETTLIN:

Okay, so do you have any problem starting out, at that point?

WOODWARD:

At what?

GETTLIN:

Well, dealing with the ROTC, we're just trying to do a — a quick — quick run through and . . .

WOODWARD:

It's a matter of record, I was in the NROTC, ah . . .

GETTLIN:

Right. ah, what I was interested in is, ah, just, quickly, the genesis of ho— why you decided to go NROTC, what the competition was like to get in, the decision to go to Yale, there's been other things written about it but I, you know, I want to deal — get it from you . . .

WOODWARD:

It's not — it doesn't have to do with Richard Nixon, I assure you.

GETTLIN:

Well, that — that may be, but we're just trying to lay a groundwork, I mean, I'm just trying to, very quickly, determine what the — thinking back right out of high school what it was that prompted you to go NROTC and Navy and Yale and so forth.

WOODWARD:

Well, my father was in the Navy, it was a scholarship, the draft was inevitable at that point, ah, so it looked like everyone was gonna have to serve, it seemed to be a good way to do it.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, was it the kind of, ah — was it intense competition to get these things, were they a big deal, were they not a big deal, why Navy rather than just . . .

WOODWARD:

I just answered.

GETTLIN:

'Cause your father was in the Navy.

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

GETTLIN:

What about competition to get into NROTC?

WOODWARD:

I don't know.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Ah, well when you went to Yale, ah, when you were in the NROTC program, ah, what was — what kind of classes did you take, did you prepare for any specialty, can you tell me a little bit about what it was like at Yale being NROTC.

WOODWARD:

No, there was no flexibility, you took one course a year.

GETTLIN:

Was there any specialty that you prepared for there?

WOODWARD:

No, no choice, they dictated what it was.

GETTLIN:

What about the summer cruises, what were they all about?

WOODWARD:

Those were also dictated.

GETTLIN:

Well, can you describe what they — where you went or what you did or . . .

WOODWARD:

Aircraft carrier, ah, first year, the marine and flight trainings, second cruise on a destroyer in the Med, third year . . .

GETTLIN:

And when you got out you were, ah, an ensign [I think it was?]

WOODWARD:

Correct.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. Did you — you didn't have any specific training? Ha— your first orders were to go to the Wright?

WOODWARD:

Correct.

GETTLIN:

Is that correct? Is there any particular reason why — do you know why you were selected to go to the Wright, was it just random or . . . what?

WOODWARD:

[LAUGHS] No idea.

GETTLIN:

You kno— you have no idea why you were . . .

WOODWARD:

I was a radio ham when I was a kid.

GETTLIN:

Hmm-mm.

WOODWARD:

And it was a communication shift, they knew that much.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, what was your job with the Wright?

WOODWARD:

Circuit Control Officer.

GETTLIN:

What does that entail?

WOODWARD:

Ah, entailed, ah, run — running the, ah, the group of, ah, radio men, laying all the circuits that the Wright kept up.

GETTLIN:

What — what kind of a ship was the Wright? It was a — it was a refurbished aircraft carrier, is that right?

WOODWARD:

Correct.

GETTLIN:

We— what was its — its assignment, its function?

WOODWARD:

Command communications.

GETTLIN:

For . . .

WOODWARD:

It was what was called [NECPPA?], national emergency command post patrol. Relocation sight for the President and the national committee command authority in an emergency.

GETTLIN:

Was the President ever aboard when you were there?

WOODWARD:

Ah, Johnson came aboard once, briefly.

GETTLIN:

When you were an officer on that ship?

WOODWARD:

Right, right.

GETTLIN:

What ah — now you mentioned before about your security clearance, what kind of security clearances did you have?

WOODWARD:

Top secret crypto.

GETTLIN:

Top secret crypto? What is — yeah, and I don't — I don't know that the ins and outs of . . .

WOODWARD:

I realize that.

GETTLIN:

Okay, well maybe you can educate me a little bit, what is — where does that fall in the line of . . .

WOODWARD:

It — it is not a [INAUDIBLE] intelligence, as — as I attempted to tell you, ah, clearance and all, it's for the cryptographic machines and code cards that, ah, are used in communications.

GETTLIN:

Hmm-mm. Ah, so what — without revealing anything that would, you know, be, you know, top secret or anything — well if — you can what you want, I guess, I'm just trying to get an idea of what kinds of information came in to the Wright that you would process or the guys that you were with would process.

WOODWARD:

It — it — it's essentially a, ah, an emergency relocation command post, it's waiting . . .

GETTLIN:

Hmm-mm.

WOODWARD:

. . . for the crisis, which never came.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. So what was that two-year period like, was it — you just, you guys just sort of sitting around or was it actually top . . .

WOODWARD:

I think it was two and a half years.

GETTLIN:

Oh, OK.

WOODWARD:

You know, a lot of watches, a lot of routine, Navy ship board.

GETTLIN:

Y e ah, would you consider it an assignment that was, ah, prestigious assignment or one that, I mean, did that — did most guys coming out of Yale or out of ROTC get those kind — I mean, it was — they wouldn't select just anybody, right, for a top secret crypto job or maybe they would, I don't know.

WOODWARD:

Well, they — it certainly was not one of the prestigious assignments, okay?

GETTLIN:

Now, you went to the — you left the Wright after two — two and a half years, um, what were your orders at that point?

WOODWARD:

I got orders to Vietnam and I asked to have them changed to go to another ship.

GETTLIN:

What — do you remember specifically what the orders were, to go to Vietnam and do what?

WOODWARD:

I think it was to be a technical watch officer in Canto province.

GETTLIN:

And what would that of — was that on a boat?

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE].

GETTLIN:

Was that on a boat or was that . . .

WOODWARD:

No, it was in an operations center.

GETTLIN:

Right, okay, how did those get changed?

WOODWARD:

I requested it.

GETTLIN:

Uh, do you remember the procedure you went through and . . .

WOODWARD:

Wrote the letter and said I'd rather go to sea, I didn't want to got to Vietnam.

GETTLIN:

Do you remember who you wrote to or who changed the orders?

WOODWARD:

Detailer.

GETTLIN:

Oh, okay, so each guy in the Navy has a — has a detail officer, is that right?

WOODWARD:

Correct.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. Um, and you just went through a normal procedure to just request, I — my understanding is it wasn't easy to get out of Vietnam.

WOODWARD:

Well, I made a trip to Washington to talk to my detailer.

GETTLIN:

From — where were you [INAUDIBLE]?

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE].

GETTLIN:

Uh-huh, so you said . . .

WOODWARD:

. . . and wrote a letter and sat down and talked to the guy.

GETTLIN:

And just like that said I don't wanta go to Vietnam, find me another assignment.

WOODWARD:

Correct, I'd rather go on a ship.

GETTLIN:

It was that easy?

WOODWARD:

[LAUGHS] [NO?]

GETTLIN:

Okay, was there anybod— so the detailer made the decision?

WOODWARD:

I believe so.

GETTLIN:

N— nobody higher up or any . . .

WOODWARD:

Not to my knowledge.

GETTLIN:

Okay, so you . . .

COLODNY:

Those — were those orders that you had, Bob, were they cut already at the time that you got them originally?

WOODWARD:

Yes.

GETTLIN:

Um, so you went — did they assign you to the Fox — they said okay, you don't want to go to Vietnam?

WOODWARD:

That's correct.

GETTLIN:

Okay, so you went to the Fox and what was your — and were you an Ensign now or were you a Lieutenant JG.

WOODWARD:

No, I was a Lieutenant JG or a Lieutenant.

COLODNY:

I think — I think it was JG.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, okay. So you — they assigned you to the Fox.

WOODWARD:

Communications Officer.

GETTLIN:

Okay, now that was different from a radio officer that you had on the Wright, was that — was that a step up?

WOODWARD:

Well, I was in — I was in charge of communications for the whole ship.

GETTLIN:

Can you describe [INAUDIBLE] Wright, what that entailed?

WOODWARD:

Well, maybe 15 or 20 radio men, you had to keep up circuits, ah, ways of communications, all that type of stuff, [INAUDIBLE].

GETTLIN:

And you guys were based in San Diego, but you took, I think, a number of trips to South China sea or I guess it was ca— what was it called "Yankee Station" is what the reference was to the [machine?].

WOODWARD:

Well, we made, ah, one [less man?] cruise while I was . . .

GETTLIN:

Okay, well what was the Wright's assignment on those — we— were you and, ah . . .

WOODWARD:

You mean Fox?

GETTLIN:

I'm sorry, Fox, was the Fox acting in support of any military operations [INAUDIBLE]?

WOODWARD:

They were, ah — we— we hi— were a radar picket ship, um, um, it was called a [PIRAZ?] station . . .

GETTLIN:

Hmm.

WOODWARD:

. . . and I forget what that stands for, ah, we — we had one position we had to kind of circle around in, ah, off the cost of Vietnam and acted as a radar guidance ship, ah, for planes.

COLODNY:

For planes that had been doing air strikes on Vietnam?

WOODWARD:

Yeah, and all kinds of air crap.

GETTLIN:

Was there — how about the security clearances on the Fox, were they similar to the Wright . . .

WOODWARD:

Same thing.

GETTLIN:

. . . top secret crypto?

WOODWARD:

They — that's correct [INAUDIBLE] they had an embarked, ah intelligence team, ah . . .

GETTLIN:

What — what was that all about?

WOODWARD:

Well, ah, I don't know because I wasn't cleared for it.

GETTLIN:

The Wright — excuse me, the Fox had an embarked intelligence team?

WOODWARD:

That's correct, of about — ju— they would come and go, they had some, ah, they had something they were doing, I — I think it was, ah, what did they call them, CT's, communications technicians.

GETTLIN:

Oh, I see.

WOODWARD:

For the intelligence enlisted.

GETTLIN:

Hmm-mm. So would the Fox be a ship that would be specifically assigned for that kind of a thing or . . .

WOODWARD:

No, I think whatever ship came and assumed those duties and the, ah, ah, team embarked.

COLODNY:

Was this the Fox's maiden voyage to, ah, Vietnam?

WOODWARD:

No, it was not, it had been there previously.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, the Fox had — I think the Fox first sailed in 1967.

COLODNY:

It did get reclassified at a point too wi— during the SALT treaty, didn't somehow another they reclassify from what it was originally built to be in order to meet . . .

WOODWARD:

Oh yeah, we weren't aware of that.

COLODNY:

It was then after — it was after you were gone anyway.

WOODWARD:

I'm sure it was.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Bob Welander was the captain of the ship during a period when you were there, ah, were w— what was your relationship with then Captain Welander, now retired Rear Admiral?

WOODWARD:

Um, we got along. And he — he was my boss, he was a bit of a dynamic, ah . . . skipper, somebody moving up.

GETTLIN:

Hmm-mm. Um, just — just a procedural thing, ah, how many officers would be aboard the Wright? You were, what, one of maybe 25, 26?

GETTLIN:

So there was . . .

WOODWARD:

But it be — could be 12, it could be 18.

GETTLIN:

Right, out of a crew of, what, a couple hundred, perhaps?

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE]

GETTLIN:

So, ah, and the officers, you know, you guys ate together and, you know, rub shoulders together all the time so, ah, it just is my understanding of — of what — I've never been in the Navy or been on a naval vessel, what — you know, what life is like among the officer corps on a ship, ah, our understanding is you get to know each other pretty well, I just wondered how much you got to know then Captain Welander, you mentioned he's a — got along with him, I assume were on — out at sea, it'd be best to get along with your captain, anything more than that?

WOODWARD:

No.

GETTLIN:

Um, now he left the Fox, I think, before you did and then an guy named Ward came on . . .

WOODWARD:

Right.

GETTLIN:

Okay, when, after Welander left the Fox, did you have any further contact with him or did you keep any kind of a relationship up with him?

WOODWARD:

He was a, ah, Council on Foreign Relations fellow, I believe, for a year and I think we exchanged letters once.

GETTLIN:

Hmm-mm. Ah, have you had any contact with him in the years since the Fox at all, I mean, talked to him or met with him or any kind of dealings with him at all?

WOODWARD:

Maybe had lunch once or twice, ah, as you know and as is a matter of record, ah, I think Carl and I wrote the first story identifying him as the Kissinger aide who's fired or relieved or transferred, depending on how you look at it . . .

GETTLIN:

Yeah.

WOODWARD:

. . . The Radford . . .

GETTLIN:

Right. So did you talk to him around that time?

WOODWARD:

Sure did.

GETTLIN:

You remember the circumstances that . . .

WOODWARD:

Well, I — have you gone into the record on that in terms . . .

GETTLIN:

Of what?

WOODWARD:

. . . of what's published in The Post and other newspapers?

GETTLIN:

On what, the Moorer-Radford?

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

Oh, yeah, sure. You broke the story on the 12th of January 19 .

WOODWARD:

Yeah, we were the first to name him.

COLODNY:

Yeah, you had a picture of him on the front page.

WOODWARD:

It was the lead story in the paper.

COLODNY:

Yeah, right. And it was a — it was the, the big story of that day and you ran a follow up story the second day, I — you and Carl, and, and Sy was running, pretty much, in the same ball park that you were running in at that — at that point, ah, the two of you . . .

WOODWARD:

But I think Squire of the Tribune . . .

COLODNY:

Tribune.

WOODWARD:

. . . broke the story because it was the — the big, ah, national security mystery that Nixon [had disarmed for sighting?] as why

COLODNY:

Right.

WOODWARD:

. . . some of this should not be opened up.

COLODNY:

Right. Well somebody wanted the story out, obviously at that point in time there had been — I — I think I'm right . . .

GETTLIN:

Let me — let me move back to — to Welander a second before I lose the train. So, it was around that time that you may have talked to him — that — I mean, here you're in a — you're sort of in a, I would guess, a sort of a funny position, a former — you're now no longer in the Navy, you're now a — were you — it's '74 so wa— I mean, you're a noted guy now because of the Watergate coverage and you call on your former commanding officer and say, "You know, we're about to reveal all this stuff." Ah, is that how it happened?

WOODWARD:

Wait, you know that's, ah, how many years . . .

GETTLIN:

Yeah, it's a long time.

WOODWARD:

About 15 years ago. I'd have to go back and look at the story. Um, I recall talking to him or talking to his wife and saying, "We're writing this story" and — I don't — and I think he would not talk about it.

GETTLIN:

Hmm-mm. Did you — you've never — you had any contact with him prior to that January '74 period when you were writing the story about him?

WOODWARD:

The Watergate story?

GETTLIN:

No, no the Moo—

COLODNY:

Moorer-Radford.

GETTLIN:

The one you just mentioned, the Moorer-Rad— where you guys first named him.

WOODWARD:

Not that I recall, I don't know why I would.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, okay. Ah, how about post-Watergate, you had any contact with him since then?

COLODNY:

After the Moorer-Radford story.

GETTLIN:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

Post Moorer-Radford.

WOODWARD:

I think we've talked twice.

GETTLIN:

Recently or not recently, a long time ago?

WOODWARD:

Well, let's see, I think, recently, I think I wanted to talk to him — [Phil?] and I are doing a little project on [Lieutenant?] [INAUDIBLE] and then I had one other discussion, which I'm not — which is, ah, like everyone in the Moorer-Radford affair, there were many versions of it and I was trying to find out what really happened.

GETTLIN:

Oh, so you're writing about the Moorer-Radford affair?

WOODWARD:

No, no, no, no, no.

GETTLIN:

Oh, oh, oh.

WOODWARD:

This — I — I was just saying generally in the Pentagon I called him . . .

GETTLIN:

Oh.

WOODWARD:

. . . but he was, ah, off on a sailing trip and I've not talked to him since, ah, but sometime in the '70's, after Nixon left office . . .

GETTLIN:

Yeah.

WOODWARD:

. . . after Nixon resigned . . .

GETTLIN:

Uh-huh.

WOODWARD:

. . . um, I think I may have had lunch with him, to try to find out what was going on.

GETTLIN:

With the Moorer-Radford thing?

WOODWARD:

Yeah, yeah.

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

I was unsuccessful.

GETTLIN:

Well, yes, you say there's different versions . . .

COLODNY:

Did you feel funny about that, I mean, this is just an off the cuff — I mean, I tried to put myself in your place as I read the articles that you wrote, and I'm not — I don't see anything sinister in it, just thinking what it must be like to have to go back to your old commanding officer and — it — there had to be some personal feeling, beyond just being a reporter, I — I mean that would seem just be human, it's just that . . .

WOODWARD:

Well I — I — I

COLODNY:

. . . 'Cause this had to be very — this had to be very embarrassing to Welander himself.

WOODWARD:

Well, I do — I guess I would cite as an example of, ah, the newspaper and my independence, ah, he was the former skipper and somebody I knew but, ah, names were being taken and — and, ah, we went ahead and did it.

GETTLIN:

Right. Okay, well, let's — let's run through the chronology again, so you left the Fox, ah, after about two years. Now, what happened at that point, you then went to the Pentagon, after the Fox?

WOODWARD:

Well, I had submitted my resignation, ah . . .

GETTLIN:

My understa— hang on just a second, the NROTC contract, as I understand it, required four years active, two years inactive reserve or something like that . . .

WOODWARD:

I don't know what it was — I know four years active.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, so at the end of the four years, which otherwise, normally would've been a period when you would have not been able to leave but you did, so wha— what happened?

WOODWARD:

Do you know why I did?

GETTLIN:

Well, you've told me on the phone that you [INAUDIBLE]

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE]

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

GETTLIN:

Hmm-mm.

WOODWARD:

And my four years would be up in the summer . . .

GETTLIN:

Right.

WOODWARD:

COLODNY:

Right.

WOODWARD:

But I think in '67, ah, the Secretary of the Navy had issued an order saying all regular officers, and I was one, are extended for — for 12 months.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Ah, I had mentioned to you that — I had had trouble finding the record that . . .

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

GETTLIN:

. . . you know, ah, maybe I didn't, obviously, didn't look in the right place, you said the Secretary of the Navy — as far as you . . .

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE], I've got a thing upstairs and I'll show you . . .

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

. . . is the best [INAUDIBLE]. [CONVERSATION IN BACKGROUND]

GETTLIN:

Ah, so actually two years prior to that, I mean, it was in '67, something you probably didn't even know about when you submitted your resignation [LOUD BACKGROUND NOISES] [INAUDIBLE] so actually two years prior to that — I mean, it was in '67 something you p r o bably didn't even know about when you submitted your resignation, that this lawyer had . . .

WOODWARD:

Did you just park in the driveway?

GETTLIN:

Yeah.

WOODWARD:

Well, that — that lady wants to get out, why don't one of you go move it.

GETTLIN:

Why don't — I better move it 'cause it's — why don't you . . . [CONVERSATIONS STOPS, LOTS OF BACKGROUND NOISES]

COLODNY:

I had the, ah, the month — ah, just to refresh your memory, of the — of we— of the months it took to end up lieutenant — you became a lieutenant on . . .

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 1:

Your best bet [INAUDIBLE]

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 2:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

. . . July one of '68

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 1:

. . . go to the left.

WOODWARD:

. . . is that right?

COLODNY:

Ya— you had like 17 months .

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 1:

Go out to the left . . .

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 2:

Wa— out the drive way and to the left?

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 1:

Out to — when you're facing the street the spaces are mostly that way.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 2:

Okay.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE 1:

Okay.

COLODNY:

It was 17 months as an Ensign and 19 months 'til you became a Lieutenant. [LONG PAUSE]

WOODWARD:

Are you really gonna publish this stuff, Len?

COLODNY:

Do you honestly believe, Bob, that St. Martin's has said, "Okay, folks, we're gonna hand you a lot of money to write a book," and we didn't have to support what we say in there, I think that wouldn't be . . .

WOODWARD:

But it — it's dead-ass wrong.

COLODNY:

Well, you know, that's on— I think it's one of the reasons we're here, Bob, in other words one of the things when yo— when was a - - what I thought was a deadlock with us, the inability to communicate, I didn't think was fair, ah, when we got to New York, ah, your agent — your agent, our agent had received a call from Alice at, ah, Simon and Schuster and said that we had an interview [going?], you told Washingtonian you didn't want to help with the project and I felt that it wasn't fair, we've read all these other stories that you've read, I didn't think that's going to the horse's mouth and asking . . .

WOODWARD:

Well, the — the — that's why we're gonna spend this time doing it.

COLODNY:

Ah, I mean I don't — I don't think we're being unfair and I think that it's important not to read it somewhere else.

WOODWARD:

Right.

COLODNY:

I think it's — I — I think that it would be unfair to read what other people had written, whether it's Halberstam or Hougan, and make a judgment without going through this material with you and saying this is, you know, what's the real story, I don't see the point — I didn't see the point in that and I've always pushed Bob, ah, on this side of the story, because we got . . .

WOODWARD:

I'll get — I'll get it, go ahead.

COLODNY:

. . . we had contradictory testimony — testimony — you're saying one thing, Hougan saying another thing, Halberstam say—

WOODWARD:

Who's saying another thing?

COLODNY:

I'm saying you're saying one thing . . .

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

. . . Hougan's saying another thing, ah, somebody else is saying something else, Halberstam writes something else, you end up in a situation where the only person that — and I know you wouldn't do this as a reporter, you wouldn't just take some — something you read in a book and say that's the way it is and that's the way it happened, you know, that — that to me, this is much better, this is asking [INAUDIBLE] . . . and we — I —I feel a very strong obligation to print what Bob Woodward says and not what somebody else says about Bob and let it stand alone. I don't think that . . .

WOODWARD:

Right.

COLODNY:

. . . I — I — and that's the way we . . .

WOODWARD:

So th— the— okay, so let's proceed.

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

We've got one hour left, so you might want . . .

GETTLIN:

Okay, so . . .

WOODWARD:

. . . to use it any way you want.

GETTLIN:

Right, well we're gonna — I'm gonna be through this pretty soon. Okay, we're back to the Pentagon, so you mentioned that — there's something upstairs which describes the [INAUDIBLE]

WOODWARD:

They sent out an . . .

COLODNY:

Yeah.

WOODWARD:

. . . an all [match?], do you know what that is, to all Navy saying we— we're extending these officers for one year.

GETTLIN:

Right, was it all . . .

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE]

GETTLIN:

. . . all officers . . .

WOODWARD:

All regular officers.

GETTLIN:

Nothing to do with your particular specialty or . . . okay, what is a regular officer, is it [both?] . . .

WOODWARD:

Ah, i— what's called an [lapricon grid?] officer, somebody who, ah, it's — it's a designation for somebody who may stay in the Navy permanently, that's like somebody who goes to the Naval Academy.

GETTLIN:

They have any indication that you were gonna be a — a career guy, or . . .?

WOODWARD:

That's what the regular scholarship was, it's like going to the Naval Academy.

GETTLIN:

Oh, oh, see I was . . .

WOODWARD:

You have the same designation.

GETTLIN:

But there was no — was there any indication — did you make the indication to the Navy that you were interested in staying on?

WOODWARD:

No, sir, 'cause I told you I'd resigned in '69.

GETTLIN:

Um . . .

WOODWARD:

Submitted my letter of resignation, it was not accepted, it was delayed one year.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Ah,now you went to the Pentagon — what was — you went to work, ah, in the CNO's office, and what was your . . .

WOODWARD:

Oh, it's — I was a Communications Watch Officer.

GETTLIN:

And it . . .

WOODWARD:

It was a matter of record.

GETTLIN:

Right, what — what about the clearances there?

WOODWARD:

Top secret crypto, no intelligence, no special intelligence clearances.

GETTLIN:

Well, there's been a lot — again as Len said, some of this may be on the record but who knows if it's right or not, that's why it kinda plods down . . .

WOODWARD:

On — on — on what record?

GETTLIN:

Well, I mean, people have written about what you may or may not have done . . .

WOODWARD:

Never had the intelligence clearances . . .

GETTLIN:

No.

WOODWARD:

it's a matter of record.

GETTLIN:

Right, okay.

WOODWARD:

What I think you can establish then . . .

GETTLIN:

I haven't . . .

WOODWARD:

. . . with a little ingenuity, —

GETTLIN:

. . . haven't had any indication that you were in intelligence, lieutenant.

COLODNY:

I — we have absolutely no evidence that you . . .

GETTLIN:

One thing . . .

COLODNY:

. . . we have not come across a shred of evidence to indicate that you were ever in Naval intelligence.

GETTLIN:

I was just asking you what — again as you discussed the Wright and the Fox, what the job was as a communications watch officer on the CNO's staff, again you were at the Pentagon, in a basement room and it's cryp— you know, what kind of messages came in, did you supervise guys, did you read digests, I mean, just . . .

WOODWARD:

I was in charge of, ah, on a watch basis, of all the communications coming to the CNO or — actually to the whole Navy Department, including the Secretary of the Navy.

GETTLIN:

Um, what did you — you basically just worked there, I mean, did you go anywhere else, did you have another function sometimes?

WOODWARD:

Sometimes I went other places like, ah, had courier duty at the White House occasionally.

GETTLIN:

What did that involve, 'cause this . . .

WOODWARD:

It's scut work carrying some documents or a folder down.

GETTLIN:

Would — in other words, Moorer or one of his guys would say go take this over to somebody at the White House and you'd rush over there and drop it off.

WOODWARD:

Wouldn't be Moorer it would, ah, in other words just be regular runs or somebody that, you know, somebody would say you need to go over there and get this.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. So it would just be a matter of dropping something off and leaving?

WOODWARD:

Sometimes a little bit longer, but if you — you oughta understand this if it — it is not, um, communications function like this is strictly, ah, nuts and bolts, it's not substantive, it's not making decisions, it's not writing things, it's getting message A or document A from here to here.

GETTLIN:

Any place else besides the White House, like the CIA . . .

WOODWARD:

Never — never the CIA, never the CIA, I think maybe State Department a couple of times.

GETTLIN:

Again, this is — now, you mentioned it's scut work and other people have written that it was a boring job, that you hated it, is that accurate?

WOODWARD:

It —it was boring, yes.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. Um so you were just, kinda running around gophering, I mean is that really what it was like?

WOODWARD:

That you could, read operational messages coming in sometimes there would be a crisis, you could read the, ah, reports coming from Vietnam, had access to all the, ah, operational, hon— intelligence, so you could follow the — during a lot of air strikes into Vietnam. I — I believe the — the [indemnization?] program was getting off the ground, followed that

GETTLIN:

During that year did you, as when you were working at the Pentagon you mentioned you were a communications watch officer, did you have any other job, any other function?

WOODWARD:

No.

GETTLIN:

Nothing at all?

WOODWARD:

Nothing at all.

GETTLIN:

Did you do any briefing with people?

WOODWARD:

Never.

GETTLIN:

Never did — you . . . um . . .

WOODWARD:

And — I defy you to produce somebody who says I did the briefing, it's just — it's not true . . .

GETTLIN:

Well . . .

WOODWARD:

. . . I wish I did, I'm sure it would've been more interesting.

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

You got somebody who says I did briefings?

GETTLIN:

We have information that you were not only communications watch officer but also a briefing officer, maybe did briefings.

WOODWARD:

To who?

GETTLIN:

At the White Houses and other places.

WOODWARD:

Who said that — well, what — what sort of people, I'm sure that . . .

GETTLIN:

It's — it's — it's somebody who was in a position to know, would've been in a position to know and that's why I asked you, if you say you didn't do it, I'll take your word for it.

WOODWARD:

Okay.

GETTLIN:

We'll print it a— we'll print it.

WOODWARD:

You'll — yo— you'll print what?

GETTLIN:

That you said you were not a briefer.

WOODWARD:

I wasn't.

GETTLIN:

Bob — you know, that's the point, I think . . .

WOODWARD:

But no —

GETTLIN:

You've said it and I think we're gonna . . .

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE]

COLODNY:

. . . we're — we're gonna say what you've said.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, and I think that's what you ..

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE] there are — is kinda like — there are four of us sitting at the table, there's some things you can establish - you can establish — you can establish that if you want to.

GETTLIN:

Well, you know, you don't . . .

WOODWARD:

You can.

GETTLIN:

. . . you don't like to discuss your sources, I know that and you said that publicly for many years and ee— okay, and we're not in the position to discuss our sources, all we can say is that in talking to more than one person, a number of people, we have developed information which says that while you were at — during that year at the Pentagon you not only were a communications watch officer, which you've established and we've established, but that you also were a briefer, you did briefings.

WOODWARD:

To whom, in what room, when?

GETTLIN:

At the Pentagon and . . .

WOODWARD:

It was at the Pentagon, it's a big building, where?

GETTLIN:

Well see — in the, ah

WOODWARD:

In the what?

GETTLIN:

. . . in the complex with the CNO.

WOODWARD:

What is that complex?

GETTLIN:

Well . . .

WOODWARD:

I don't know what you're talking about.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, I mean doesn't the CNO — doesn't — tell me you — you educate me . . .

WOODWARD:

Okay.

GETTLIN:

Okay, I'll -I'll ask the questions you can tell me what — whether, you know, I've got it right or not and I'll just take your word for it and we'll have to go with what we have. Does the CNO have a — have a suite of offices or area in the Pentagon where his offices are located?

WOODWARD:

Sure.

GETTLIN:

Okay, my understanding is that briefings went on there and then briefing officers, having talked to [INAUDIBLE] ..

WOODWARD:

Yes.

GETTLIN:

. . . then leave and — and go and brief other people in the government.

WOODWARD:

Now this communications watch officer is not a briefer.

GETTLIN:

No, I understand that.

WOODWARD:

Okay.

GETTLIN:

Okay, well if I . . .

WOODWARD:

It just never happened . . .

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

. . . I've — I've been here [INAUDIBLE]

GETTLIN:

You — you said that — okay — no — no . . .

WOODWARD:

You — you — you — you — have got, ah, bad sources.

GETTLIN:

Okay.

COLODNY:

Bob, let me ask you this, you — 'cause I'm gonna pick upon something you said, you said it can be established, how, if you were honest, would you establish what you just said could be established?

WOODWARD:

Well, go to your sources and say where did this happen, when did it happen, did you see it, call up and — and, ah, find out who does the communications watch officer work now and find out if they're briefers, if they give briefings, because it's all . . .

COLODNY:

Well, wha—

WOODWARD:

. . . you — you know that's in your . . .

COLODNY:

No I ca—

WOODWARD:

Look, ya— th— the quality of information is gonna be — you have somebody . . .

COLODNY:

Sure.

WOODWARD:

I mean, it just didn't happen . . .

COLODNY:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

. . . but you — and you seem to want to pin something significant on this, ah . . .

COLODNY:

I wouldn't . . .

WOODWARD:

. . . and what I'm trying . . .

COLODNY:

. . .I'm not gonna . . .

WOODWARD:

. . . to do . . .

COLODNY:

. . . I'm not trying to pin anything, I want to — I want to understand . . .

WOODWARD:

You — you — you — it's evident you're trying to pin . . .

COLODNY:

Well . . .

WOODWARD:

Come on let's not . . .

COLODNY:

Ah, well that's — that's an interpretation — okay . . .

WOODWARD:

Where you learned it in Watergate — Woodward became the cats paw for these military men, including Haig, that's called pinning.

COLODNY:

Huh, no, I'll let's you . . .

WOODWARD:

We don't have to be coy, no.

GETTLIN:

Well, we can discuss this, I mean I just want to run through the questions, if you have questions you want to ask, fine. Um, I just wanted to ask you and hear from you whether in fact — the way that year depended on, when you were also a communications watch officer, whether you also held a the title of briefer, did any briefings with anybody in the government?

WOODWARD:

Never.

GETTLIN:

Okay, um, now after you got out in, um — got out of, ah, the Navy in, what, '69, '70, excuse me, '70 da— summer of '70, um, you were gonna go to Harvard is that right, you planned to go to Harvard law school . . .

WOODWARD:

I was thinking of going to law school, ah . . .

GETTLIN:

What was that . . .

WOODWARD:

Pardon?

GETTLIN:

You were thinking — oh, you were thinking but you never went?

WOODWARD:

Never went.

GETTLIN:

Okay, okay, um . . .

WOODWARD:

Applied and was accepted and, ah, just had this feeling in five yea— I've said this before — five years of my life, ah, doing very little and, ah, decided to apply for a job at The Post.

GETTLIN:

Right.

WOODWARD:

Was given a two week try out, this is all a matter of . . .

GETTLIN:

We'll run through it real quick . . .

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE] record.

GETTLIN:

. . . I just want to ask you real quickly now, ah, the — did you — when you left in '70 at the end of your Pentagon year were you through with your obligation?

WOODWARD:

I was, I had not . . .

GETTLIN:

. . . [had not?] . . .

WOODWARD:

. . . [INAUDIBLE] the reserve.

GETTLIN:

Okay, so that sixth year, that was part of your original contract was waived somehow by . . .

WOODWARD:

I don't know . . .

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

. . . I don't know what happened.

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

. . . but I know I had an option from going into the reserves . . .

GETTLIN:

Right.

WOODWARD:

. . . or not and I chose not to.

GETTLIN:

Okay, real quick, ah, we'll finish this part up real quick 'cause we've — our time is running along, you went to the Post, ah, ah, any particular reason why, did you want to stay in Washington, did — just on a lark went to The Post or — how did that happen?

WOODWARD:

Well, I thought it would be — I'd read The Post for the year I was here, something to —if I could get a job there, start doing something.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. And was it — so was, ah, journalism was your craft, that's when — it was during the Navy you already had your sight set on becoming a journalist, is that it?

WOODWARD:

Well, I would like to say it was clearer and I was more focused, but I wasn't.

GETTLIN:

Okay, so you went to The Post and you had your two week try out and you talked to Harry Rosenfeld and you didn't make it, then what happened from there, after the two weeks he said "You're not gonna cut it, Woodward," and wh— where — what happened from there?

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE] got a job with Montgomery County Sentinel.

GETTLIN:

How did you end up going with the Sentinel?

WOODWARD:

Well, I think a number of people, including Rosenfeld or it may have been his deputy suggested that that was a good weekly paper to learn journalism.

GETTLIN:

Right. Did he in any way sort of grease the way for you to go, did he do anything for you or . . .

WOODWARD:

He may of called the editor or written him a letter.

COLODNY:

GETTLIN:

Was — was there somebody who would write a letter for you?

WOODWARD:

I don't know, ah, it's quite possible.

GETTLIN:

Could it have been somebody in the Navy that wrote a letter for you? No way?

WOODWARD:

Not to my knowledge.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Um . . .

WOODWARD:

It's possible I may have had a recommendation from someone.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, I just was curious whether the people you — commanding officers or somebody in a position of authority or a superior would know that you were — wanted to go into journalism and then you would say, "Hey, could you write me a letter?" and he in fact did.

WOODWARD:

You know, not to my knowledge.

GETTLIN:

Okay. So you went . . .

WOODWARD:

My recollection of it.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Ah, so you went to the Sentinel and, ah, you talked to the editor there and did he just hire you on the spot or, just very quickly, how did that — how did that come?

WOODWARD:

[LAUGHS] N— it's — it's been written about ad nauseam.

GETTLIN:

Yeah.

WOODWARD:

[INAUDIBLE] by people.

GETTLIN:

Hmm-mm.

WOODWARD:

He had a number of applications and titles.

GETTLIN:

Any particular reason why?

WOODWARD:

You keep asking me the reasons why other people do . . .

GETTLIN:

[INAUDIBLE]

WOODWARD:

. . . that's very good, ah, well maybe he did tell me but I'm not — you ought ask him, his name is Roger Farquhar.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, I've talked to Farquhar. And he — he said that, um, that, ah, he had a letter that was written for — on your behalf and that it was the letter and and your eagerness and enthusiasm.

WOODWARD:

Letter from who?

GETTLIN:

From a guy in the Navy, commanding officer.

WOODWARD:

Who?

GETTLIN:

I don't — I don't know who.

WOODWARD:

I don't think that's true.

GETTLIN:

Okay.

WOODWARD:

I may have shown him my fitness . . .

GETTLIN:

Maybe not.

WOODWARD:

Or something [like that?]

COLODNY:

He described the letter as a glowing letter of recommendation from the — from an officer in the Pentagon, that was his description of what he said was the reason, what — that plus what you may have said to him in the doorway about wanting the job so badly.

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

He remembered that quote.

WOODWARD:

I don't — I don't think there was a letter.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Um, okay, ah, I think that's pretty much —- maybe one or two more — now did you maintain contact with The Post while you were there, I mean, as— it was almost a year after that that you went to work for The Post.

WOODWARD:

That's correct.

GETTLIN:

Did they — was there an agreement that if you worked out at The Sentinel they'd hire you or . . .

WOODWARD:

No, there was no agreement, it was, you know, come back after you've learned journalism

GETTLIN:

Right, so you did and is — good stories at The Sentinel and that was — they hired you?

WOODWARD:

They did.

GETTLIN:

Right, okay, ah, when you went to The Post, what was — you went on the Metro staff and then were you a city side reporter?

WOODWARD:

Hmm-mm.

GETTLIN:

Ah, you went and I think in early — the spring of '72 Governor Wallace got shot and you did some stories on Wallace, is that right?

WOODWARD:

Right.

GETTLIN:

Ah, was that part of your regular beat?

WOODWARD:

Hnn-nn.

GETTLIN:

How did — how did you end up writing about Wallace?

WOODWARD:

Well, ah— it was pretty —I was fascinated in who might have done this and I think I think I focused on the guy who, ah, [Arthur Bremmer?].

GETTLIN:

Right, did you — had you ever meet Wallace or . . .

WOODWARD:

No.

GETTLIN:

Okay, ah, and then from there, you know, this began to you — popular history is replete with stories about how you then hooked onto Watergate so, I guess I'll turn it over to Len to take it over from there if you want to move on.

COLODNY:

I just have heard from the past the whole [INAUDIBLE], I just have some confusion and I thought maybe you could clear the confusion better than anyone else. Um, I was trying to understand the agreement that you had with your source, not who the source is, I'm not asking who the source is and I don't want to get involved in — that's not what this book is about, I'm not trying to find out who your source was that's — this game has been played so many times you — you almost get tired of reading stories about who he is and Dean's elaborate attempt to figure out exactly who the person is, but I am interested in the agreement that you had with, ah, with your source. And according to All The Presidents Men you said that you had — he sa— you said you had promised him you would never identify him or his position to anyone and, ah, further you agreed never to quote the man, even as an anonymous source and that the discussions would only confirm information that had been obtained elsewhere and, ah, to add some perspective, is that, essentially . . .

WOODWARD:

Ah — ah it's in the book?

COLODNY:

No, I'm asking you is that essentially the . . .

WOODWARD:

If that's what the book says.

COLODNY:

You — you made the agreement [INAUDIBLE] — you might — and you wrote the book so I assume that that is correct.

WOODWARD:

Go ahead, what's the question?

COLODNY:

I — what I don't understand, you have to understand that — well look at least —

GETTLIN:

Listen you're well read, two out of three isn't bad then, right?

WOODWARD:

It's library book, you didn't even buy it.

COLODNY:

Well, I can't afford it.

GETTLIN:

Listen I've got — I've got a score card . . .

WOODWARD:

Okay.

COLODNY:

Ah, as — as everly always observant Woodward, right, ah, it won't — story about the, ah — in the November meeting that you had with your source . . .

WOODWARD:

Which November and when?

COLODNY:

1973, which is probably, based on this, the last meeting that took place and which you said Throat's message was short and simple, one or more of the tapes contained deliberate erasures.

WOODWARD:

Hmm.

COLODNY:

Describe the meeting as occurring in the first week in, ah, November 1973, there's no date on it but that's definitely it, it seems to me there's some confusion between . . . [ABOUT 20-25 SECONDS OF BLANK TAPE]

WOODWARD:

COLODNY:

This is the article right here as a result of that, that . . .

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

. . . that disclosure to you.

WOODWARD:

[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

COLODNY:

. . .if you want to look at that, fine with me. [PAUSE]

WOODWARD:

And the question?

COLODNY:

The question is, as you look on the next page, you'll see underlined . . .

WOODWARD:

Yeah?

COLODNY:

It seems to me that if we have a number of evolutions, so tell me, but it is clear to me that that's who you're quoting, uh, as a White House source . . . c Uh, the Nixon Administration is what the story is about. It's a story about an administration that soared. That took off and soared and in the end, crashed. You reported the crash. And that part of it is, is clear in the book and there's no misunderstanding. But what we tried to look at was all the other things that were going on. Uh, be—, prior to that, who Nix—, you know, what was really happening here? What kind of President was Richard Nixon and what kind of enemies did he develop?

WOODWARD:

(coughs)

COLODNY:

And how did this crash happen? And we think that that's what the book's about and it more accurately reflects your role, uh, as a reporter of, of the crash, and what was that crash all about. And who were his enemies? And who really wanted to do Richard Nixon in? The pub—, the perception of, uh, Richard Nixon. The uh, anti-communist, the, the Democrats hate him. The Liberals hate him. That kind of, so really that's what you have. A, an administration that soars to the greatest heights in foreign policy, changes the world in, in, in many ways, and then crashes. Why did it crash? And what was going on in those early years that would've led to that kind of a crash? So, I think that's an accurate description of what this book is today, and you're correct in saying, yes, that's the way it started. But we followed the facts, and let the facts determine what the story was.

WOODWARD:

We—, we will deal with facts this morning, go ahead.

GETTLIN:

Okay, so, do you have any problems with the story now, at that point?

WOODWARD:

In what?

GETTLIN:

Well, dealing with the ROTC. We're just trying to do uh, uh, quick, a quick run through, and just so —

WOODWARD:

It's a matter of record I was in NROTC unit.

GETTLIN:

Right, uh, what I was interested is uh, just quickly, jazz this uh, how you, why you decided to go in ROTC. What the competition was like to get in, uh, the decision to go to Yale. There's been other things written about it but I, you know, I wanna deal, get it from you, uh —

WOODWARD:

It's not, doesn't have anything to do with Richard Nixon, I assure you.

GETTLIN:

Well that, that may be, but we're just trying to lay a groundwork, I mean, I'm just trying to very quickly determine what the thinking back right out of high school, what it was that prompted you to go in ROTC, the Navy, and Yale, and so forth.

WOODWARD:

Well my father was in the Navy. It was a scholarship. The draft was inevitable at that point. Uh, so it looked like everyone was gonna have to serve and it seemed to be a good way to do it.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. Was it the kind of, uh, was it intense competition to get these things? Were they a big deal? Were they not a big deal? Why maybe you rather than just —

WOODWARD:

I just answered.

GETTLIN:

Because your father was in the Navy?

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

GETTLIN:

What about competition to get into the ROTC?

WOODWARD:

I don't know.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Uh, well, when you went to Yale, um, when you were in the NROTC program, uh, what was, what kind of classes did you take to prepare for your specialty? Can you tell me a little bit about what it was like at Yale being in the ROTC?

WOODWARD:

No, there was no flexibility. You took one course a year.

GETTLIN:

Was there any specialty that you prepared for there?

WOODWARD:

No. There was no choice. They dictated what it was.

GETTLIN:

What about the summer cruises and so forth? What were they all about?

WOODWARD:

Those were also dictated.

GETTLIN:

What, can you describe what they, where you went or what you did, or what —

WOODWARD:

Aircraft carrier, uh, first year, marine and flight training. Second cruise, on a destroyer, mat 13.

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm. And when you got out, you were, uh, an ensign, at that point?

WOODWARD:

Correct.

GETTLIN:

Right? Yeah. Did you have, you didn't have any specific training? How, your first orders were to go to the Wright?

WOODWARD:

Correct.

GETTLIN:

Is that correct? Is there any particular reason why or do you know why they, you were selected to go to the Wright, was it just random or —?

WOODWARD:

(laughs) No idea.

GETTLIN:

You've no, you have no idea why you were —

WOODWARD:

I was a radio handler when I was a kid.

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm.

WOODWARD:

And it was a communications ship and navigate (inaudible)

GETTLIN:

What was your job on the Wright?

WOODWARD:

Circuit Control Officer.

GETTLIN:

And what did that entail?

WOODWARD:

Uh, entailed (pause) run, running the uh, group of uh, radio men who ran all the circuits that the Wright (inaudible)

GETTLIN:

What, what kind of the ship was the Wright? It was, uh, it was a refurbished aircraft carrier, is that right?

WOODWARD:

Correct.

GETTLIN:

What, what was its assignments, function, commanding communications for —

WOODWARD:

It was what was called NEC Pod. National Emergency Command Post —

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm.

WOODWARD:

Relocation site for the President or National Command Authority in an emergency.

GETTLIN:

Was the President ever aboard when you were there?

WOODWARD:

Uh, Johnson came aboard once briefly.

GETTLIN:

When you were an officer —

WOODWARD:

Right.

GETTLIN:

—on the Wright ship. (pause) What uh, now you mentioned before about your security clearance. What kind of security clearances did you have as a —

WOODWARD:

Top secret crypto.

GETTLIN:

—uh—, Top secret crypto. What is — yeah, and I don't, I don't know the, the ins and outs of —

WOODWARD:

I realize that.

GETTLIN:

Okay, well maybe you can educate me a little bit. What is, where does that fall in the line of —

WOODWARD:

It, it is not in intelligence as I've been tempted to tell you. Uh, clearance and all. It's for the cryptographic machines, and, cope cards that uh, are used in communications.

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm. Uh, so what, without revealing anything that would, you know be—

WOODWARD:

(coughs)

GETTLIN:

— you know, top secret or anything, well, you can say what you want I guess. I'm just trying to get an idea, what kinds of information came in to the Wright that you would process, or the guys that you were with would process information.

WOODWARD:

It, it, it's essentially a uh, an emergency relocation command post. It's waiting —

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm.

WOODWARD:

—for the crisis which never came.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. So what was that two year period like? Was it, you guys were sort of sitting around, or was it actually copy —

WOODWARD:

I think it was two and a half years on the —

GETTLIN:

Oh, okay.

WOODWARD:

You know, lot of watches, led routines, Navy ship board.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. Would you consider it an assignment that was uh, prestigious assignment, or one that —, I mean did eve—, did most guys coming out of Yale —

WOODWARD:

(coughs)

GETTLIN:

—or out of ROTC get these kinds of, I mean it was—, they wouldn't select just anybody, right? For a top secret crypto job, or maybe they would, I don't know.

WOODWARD:

(coughs) Well, it'd be, it certainly was not one of the prestigious assignments.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Now, you went to the—, you left the Wright, after two, two and a half years. Um, what were your orders at that point?

WOODWARD:

I got orders to Vietnam, and I asked to have them changed to go to another ship.

GETTLIN:

What, do you remember specifically what the orders were? To go to Vietnam and do what?

WOODWARD:

I think it was to be a technical watch officer in Camtoe Providence.

GETTLIN:

And what would that have en—, was that (pause) on a boat?

WOODWARD:

(inaudible)

GETTLIN:

Was that, was that on a boat or was that —

WOODWARD:

No, it was in a, an operation center.

GETTLIN:

Right, okay. How did those get changed?

WOODWARD:

I requested it.

GETTLIN:

Um, do you remember the procedure you went through and all that?

WOODWARD:

Wrote a letter and said I'd rather go to sea. I didn't wanna go to Vietnam.

GETTLIN:

Do you remember who you wrote to, or who changed the orders?

WOODWARD:

The detailer.

GETTLIN:

Oh, okay, so each guy in the Navy has a, has a detail officer, is that right?

WOODWARD:

Correct.

GETTLIN:

Yeah. Um, and you just went through a normal procedure to just request — I, my understanding was that it wasn't easy to get out of Vietnam.

WOODWARD:

(coughs) Well I made the trip to Washington to talk to my detailer.

GETTLIN:

From, where were you?

WOODWARD:

(inaudible)

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm. So you said I wanna go —

WOODWARD:

And I wrote a letter and, sat down and talked to the guy.

GETTLIN:

And, just like that, said I don't wanna go to Vietnam. Find me another assignment?

WOODWARD:

Correct. I'd rather be on a ship.

GETTLIN:

It was that easy? Okay.

WOODWARD:

No.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Was there anybo—, and then so the detailer made the decision.

WOODWARD:

I believe so.

GETTLIN:

I mean, nobody higher up or anything had to have —

WOODWARD:

Not that I know of.

GETTLIN:

Okay. So you—

COLODNY:

Were those, were those orders that you had, Bob, were they cut already the time you got an original?

WOODWARD:

Yes.

GETTLIN:

Um, so you went, did they assign you to the Fox? And they said, okay, you don't wanna go to Vietnam?

WOODWARD:

That's correct.

GETTLIN:

Okay, so you went to the Fox and what was your, and were you an ensign now or were you a lieutenant JG?

WOODWARD:

No, I was a lieutenant JG or a lieutenant.

COLODNY:

I think, I think it was JG that you had on the Fox.

WOODWARD:

I was a JG.

COLODNY:

Yeah.

GETTLIN:

So you, they assigned you to the Fox.

WOODWARD:

Communications officer.

GETTLIN:

Okay, now that was different from a radio officer. That you had on the Wright. Now, was that a step up?

WOODWARD:

Well I was in, I was in charge of communications for the whole ship.

GETTLIN:

Can you describe, as you did about the Wright, what that entailed?

WOODWARD:

Well, maybe fifteen or twenty radio men, a key officer of fitness, uh, waste communications (inaudible — loud background noise).

GETTLIN:

And you guys were based through where, San Diego, but you took, I think a number of trips to South China Sea, or I guess it was called, what was it called Yankee Station is what the reference was to the mach—

WOODWARD:

Well it was, we basic—, well, one must have cruise while I was there.

GETTLIN:

Well, what was the Wright's assignment on those? Were, were you in uh, —

WOODWARD:

For the Fox?

GETTLIN:

I'm sorry, the Fox. What was the Fox acting in support of any military operation of any kind?

WOODWARD:

(coughs) They were uh, we, we were radar picket channel. Uh, it was called the parade station.

GETTLIN:

Umm.

WOODWARD:

I forget what that stands for, uh, (pause) we, we had one position we had to kind of circle around in, uh, off the coast of Vietnam and they acted as a radar guidance ship um, for planes.

GETTLIN:

For planes that were doing air strikes on Vietnam?

WOODWARD:

And, all kinds of air traffic.

GETTLIN:

Was there, how about the security clearances on the Fox. Were they similar to the Wright?

WOODWARD:

Same thing.

GETTLIN:

—top secret crypto?

WOODWARD:

They, that's correct and they, they had an embarked uh, intelligence team. Uh —

GETTLIN:

Wha—, what was that all about?

WOODWARD:

Well, uh, I don't know, because I wasn't cleared for it.

GETTLIN:

The Wright, excuse me, the Fox had embarked intelligence team?

WOODWARD:

That's correct, it was about, just, they would come and go, they had some um, (pause) they had something they were doing at, at, I think it was uh, what do they call 'em, C.T.'s, Communications Technicians.

GETTLIN:

Oh, I see.

WOODWARD:

—for the intelligence enlisted people.

GETTLIN:

So would the Fox be a ship that would be specifically assigned for that kind of thing, or, or —

WOODWARD:

No, I think whatever ship came, and assumed those duties had the, uh, team involved.

GETTLIN:

Okay.

COLODNY:

This is the Fox's maiden voyage to uh, Vietnam?

WOODWARD:

No, it was not.

COLODNY:

It was not.

WOODWARD:

We had been there previously.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, the Fox had—, I think the Fox first sailed in 19—, in I guess '67.

COLODNY:

It did get reclassified at a point, too. With, during the SALT treaty, didn't somehow or another they reclassified it from what it was originally built to be, in order to be—

GETTLIN:

Or, you know, we weren't aware of that.

WOODWARD:

After I was gone.

COLODNY:

It would've been after, it was after you were gone anyway.

WOODWARD:

I'm sure it was.

GETTLIN:

Okay. Bob Welander was the captain of the ship during a period when you were there. Uh, what, what was your relationship —

WOODWARD:

With who?

GETTLIN:

—then Captain Welander. Now retired Rear Admiral.

WOODWARD:

Um, we got along.

GETTLIN:

Any —

WOODWARD:

He was, he was my boss. He was uh, you know, a dynamic, uh, (pause) skipper, somebody moving up.

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm. Um, just, just a procedural thing. Uh, how many officers would be aboard the Wright? You were what, one of maybe 25, 26, maybe?

WOODWARD:

No, I don't think, fifteen maybe.

GETTLIN:

So there was —

WOODWARD:

But it, it could be twelve, it could be eighteen.

GETTLIN:

Right. Out of a crew of what? A couple hundred, perhaps?

WOODWARD:

I think three hundred.

GETTLIN:

So, uh, and the officers, you know, you guys ate together and you know, rubbed shoulders together all the time, so uh, I, it's just my understanding what, of what, I've never been in the Navy or been on a naval vessel. What it, you know, what life is like among the officer quarter of the ship. Uh, my understanding is you get to know each other pretty well. I'm just wondered how much you got to know then Captain Welander. (inaudible) Got along with. I assume you were out, out at sea, it would be best to get along with your captain. Anything more than that?

WOODWARD:

No.

GETTLIN:

Um, now, he left the Fox, I think, before you did and then a guy named Ward came on and runs it. When, after Welander left the Fox, did you have any further contact with him? Did you keep any kind of relationship up with him?

WOODWARD:

He was a, uh, counsel on Foreign Relations [UNINTELLIGIBLE], I believe, for a year and I think we exchanged letters once.

GETTLIN:

Um-hmm. Uh, have you had any contact with him in the years since the Fox at all, I mean talked to him or met with him, or any kind of dealings with him at all?

WOODWARD:

Maybe just once, once or twice. Um, as you know, and this is a matter of record, uh, I think Carl and I wrote the first story identifying him as the Kissinger, uh, aide who was fired or relieved or transferred depending on how you look at it.

GETTLIN:

Yeah.

WOODWARD:

The red or —

GETTLIN:

Right. So did you talk to him around that time?

WOODWARD:

Sure did.

GETTLIN:

Do you 'member the circumstances you —

WOODWARD:

Well I (coughs) — have you gone into the record of that in terms of —-

GETTLIN:

Of what?

WOODWARD:

—what's published in the Post and other newspapers?

GETTLIN:

On what, the Moorer-Radford issue?

WOODWARD:

Yeah.

GETTLIN:

Oh yeah, sure.

COLODNY:

You broke the story on the twelfth of January 19— in which—

WOODWARD:

And we were the first to name him.

COLODNY:

Yeah, you had a picture of him on the front page —

WOODWARD:

That's right. It was the lead story of the paper.

COLODNY:

Yeah, right. And it was uh, it was the, the big story of that day.

WOODWARD:

Um-hmm.

COLODNY:

And you ran a follow-up story the second day. Uh, you and Carl, and Sy was running pretty much in the same ball park that you were running in at that point. At that point, now the two of you—

WOODWARD:

But I think Squire of the Tribune broke —

COLODNY:

Tribune —

WOODWARD:

—the story, because it was the, the big uh, national security mystery that Nixon had bizarre citings as to why some of this should not be opened up.

GETTLIN:

Right.

COLODNY:

Well, somebody wanted the story out, obviously at that point in time there had been—, I, I think I'm right —

GETTLIN:

Well, let me, let me move back to, to [UNINTELLIGIBLE] a second before I lose my train. So it was around that time that you may have talked to him that, I mean, here you're in a, you're serving a, I would guess a sort of a plain position, your former, you're now no longer in the Navy. You're now a, where you, it's '74. So water—, I mean, you're a noted guy now because of the Watergate coverage. And you call up your former commanding officer and say, hey I'm about to reveal all this stuff. Uh, is that how it happened?

WOODWARD:

Well, you know, that's, uh, how many years ago?

GETTLIN:

Yeah, it's a long time.

WOODWARD:

About fifteen years ago. I'd have to go back and look at the story. Um, I recall talking to him or talking to his wife and saying, we're writing this story and, I don't, and I think he would not talk about it.

GETTLIN:

Hmm. Did you ever, do you remember if you had any contact with him prior to that January '74 period when you were writing the story about him?

WOODWARD:

The Watergate story?

COLODNY:

No.

GETTLIN:

No, no, no. The Mo—

COLODNY:

The Moorer-Radford.

GETTLIN:

The one you just mentioned. The Moorer-Radford.

COLODNY:

The Moorer-Radford.

GETTLIN:

You guys first named him.

WOODWARD:

Not that I recall. I don't know why I would've.

GETTLIN:

Yeah, okay. Uh, how about post-Watergate? Have you had any contact with him since then?

COLODNY:

After the Moorer-Radford story.

GETTLIN:

Yeah.

COLODNY:

Post-Moorer-Radford. (laughs)